Hold the Door
A weekly podcast about how underrepresented folks are surviving and thriving in the entertainment industry. Stay connected on Instagram @holdthedoorpod.
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Hold the Door
Boundaries with Toni Harris Quinerly
I don’t know about you, but for me, boundaries are challenging to say the least. This week, Toni Harris Quinerly joins me to discuss boundaries. She gives us some insight into her approach to setting and maintaining boundaries, and how she’s found success in both the personal and professional space.
If you want to keep up with Toni, you can find her on LinkedIn.
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Toni: You know, every act actually everybody who's listening, don't edit this part out. Everybody who's listening, take a hydration break right now.
cause it's much easier for me to say no to people when I think that they're just doing something foolish. It's harder for me to say no when this person is meeting me with expectations that I once co-signed for myself.
Camille: Hello, welcome to Hold the Door. I’m happy you’re here. I don’t know about you, but for me, boundaries are challenging. This week, Toni Harris Quinerly joins me to discuss boundaries. She gives us some insight into her approach to setting and maintaining boundaries, and how she’s found success in both the personal and professional space. Hope you enjoy our conversation.
Toni is a trusted talent advisor and executive coach with nearly 20 years of operating and consulting experience. As a Director of Executive Coaching & Feedback at Netflix, she helps leaders achieve their full potential while driving business results and leading successful teams.
As a coach, Toni specializes in helping leaders navigate complex change with greater clarity, confidence, effectiveness, and joy. With a style that blends powerful inquiry, direct feedback, and empathic support, Toni creates safe spaces for people to explore who they are, define who they want to be, and clarify the impact they want to have.
Prior to joining Netflix, Toni was a member of the Leadership Advisory and Inclusion practices at Egon Zehnder and at YSC Consulting. In both firms, Toni specialized in executive leadership development, team effectiveness, and organizational design. She has worked with companies of all sizes across the Technology, Entertainment, FinTech, Retail, Healthcare, Energy, and Social sectors.
Before entering the world of executive development, Toni held successive leadership roles in healthcare management and higher education. She holds degrees in Social Work from Columbia University (MSW) and Temple University (BSW) and is deeply passionate about holistic health and wellbeing.
Camille: welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining.
Toni: Happy to be here.
Camille: I am so excited to have you speak on boundaries because one, this is a huge growth area for me, so I'm ready to learn. And also, when I wanted to talk about boundaries, you were immediately the first person that came to mind because I think you have really good ones, and I think you have a way of enforcing them in a clear and direct way without making people feel like, oh my gosh, she hates me. So I wanna talk about how you got there.
Toni: Happy to share learning experience, right?
Camille: Yes.
Camille: So as we heard in your bio, you began your career in social work, moved into consulting, and then moved into the entertainment industry as an executive coach.
So. I always start off the podcast with asking if entertainment was always the plan. So did you ever consider a career in a, in the industry at an earlier point in your life, or was it a total surprise when you ended up here?
Toni: Not at all. I mean, you know what? To the extent that as a kid, I probably wanted to be a singer or a piano player or a, something, many things that I did like no serious investment in, but that I didn't even know.
What this industry is or was. Um, and no one in my family knew what it is or was, and I still think about 95% of the people in my family still don't know what it's so, like the short answer to your question is no, no clue, no thoughts about it whatsoever.
Camille: The industry is all the better for you being here.
So. I'm glad you ended up here
Toni: of just how, um, I heard someone say a long time ago, and it's a different conversation for a different podcast, but that sometimes your career journey can feel like, oh, it was a pastor actually who said this. So sometimes your career journey can feel like walking up to a, um, a set of sliding doors like at the supermarket or at someplace else, and the doors don't open until you get close enough to get to the door.
Right. So like, if you're further back, you just can't see, you don't even, you can't even see what's on the other side. And then you get close to the door and then all of a sudden a door opens, you're like, Ooh, what's in there? Um, and that, that has very much been my career, like moving really, really close to one direction, getting where I thought I wanted to be.
And then a door opens and there's another world on the other side of it. Move through there. Another role on the other side of it. So yes, that's how I got here. I'm happy to be here, but it did not start for me five, six worlds ago understanding that this is where we would be.
Camille: Yeah, I love that visual.
That's great. Okay
Camille: we'll start with the super basics, which is a definition.
So the term boundaries I think is used. I don't even know how many times I've heard it today. So how would you define or describe what a boundary is or what having boundaries means?
Toni: Yeah, not my definition. So let me start by giving credit. I hope I'm pronouncing this person's name correctly, but Prentis Hemphill.
Hemphill, um, this quote was the clearest way I've ever heard boundaries defined and the one that resonates the most with me. So, and I'm gonna read it just because I wanna get it correctly because people have butchered this thing. Talk about boundaries. People have butchered this so much, but "boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously."
Right, the "distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously." Now, when I think about it, I often say boundaries define the space at which I can love you and me, you know, simultaneously. That is my language, not theirs. But it is how I make sense of what. They said because this notion of being able to define the space in which we operate and to recognize that if I'm moving too much in one direction, it's loving you at my expense and too much in the other direction.
It's loving me at yours. Mm-hmm. It really helps to create this space and raise this question of like, well, how do I want us to love each other? How do I want this love to look? And it could be in my relationships with my daughter, it can be in my relationship with my husband in my relationship with my work, which is also something that I love with people.
And I think in Prentis's book, they might actually go into this notion of what does it mean to love, um, yourself? I haven't read it, so I'm not entirely sure. But it definitely raised this question for me when I read the quote of what does it mean to define how I want love to look in my relationships.
Camille: Hmm.
Toni: And if I can be clear about what that looks like, then I'm not loving me at your expense. And I'm not loving you at mine. This is really about how we make sure we can all just be here. So that's, that's the definition. That's the one that sits with me. That's the one that people who get coached by me hear the most.
Um, it really, it really resonates.
Camille: Yes. I love that there's two people in here because I think especially in this era of self-care and focus on yourself and boundaries mean cutting people out who don't serve you. It feels very self-centered in sometimes a needed way. But I think. It does feel pretty one sided of like, this is what I need, and regardless of what you need, like this is what it looks like.
So yeah, I love that definition.
Toni: It's the "not today" boundary set. Not today. You won't do this today. That's not gonna happen today. And my husband often tells this joke, he says, you know, sometimes people go into the room to light the sage, to clear the energy, and they're the people who pass out. He's like, sometimes it's you.
Sometimes it's you. And so I love this quote because it really does involve us thinking, like you said about multiple people in their relationship and being like, how can we, how can we love each other at the same time without anyone having to suffer for it?
Camille: Yes. That's so good.
Camille: How do you describe your personal approach to setting and maintaining boundaries in your life?
And I think also in the context of this podcast this season, we're talking about kind of like healthy approaches to work and having a healthy relationship with your work. So I think both in the context of a workplace setting is helpful and then also obviously we're people in this world and so yeah, need boundaries also in the personal side.
So any way you wanna answer it is great.
Toni: Well, let's talk about work. 'Cause this has been a real interesting journey for me. I think on a personal front, I've always been a fairly boundaried person.
It took a while for me to learn how to set them from a place of love and not from a place of like, not today, although there is still room for the not today boundary.
Believe me, I can access that quite quickly. Um, but in a work context, I like my life has changed so much with each different season that the biggest challenge in setting boundaries came with me having to. Like reconcile what was changing about me with the idea I had of who I was. So for instance, when I when I was one of the first jobs that I had, fairly, not first, but fairly early in my career, I worked in higher education and had a really great experience and was very successful, had amazing colleagues, and I lived at that job.
You wanna talk about boundaries not existing? I didn't have a personal email account. Oh, I did every including apply to my next job on your work email account. Like my coworkers helped me plan my wedding. I kept 50% of my wardrobe at my office. So if I went out with friends, I would, and this is a very New York thing to do, I would be like, hold on, we gotta stop down by the office so I can go get some shoes because my shoes are at the office.
And I remember a coach saying to me like, whoa, boundaries. And you know, people know each other that well and they hang out that well. But at that stage in my life. It just worked. I had that much space, right? Like I just had that much space. I could be at the office late, I could do those things. And then it got to a point where my life became fuller.
Um, I became responsible for more people. I started to value different things. And all of a sudden now places where I wouldn't have said no before. I was saying no to, and things that I didn't necessarily say yes to before I wanted to say yes to. And I think that experience helps me understand that setting boundaries is much easier to do when you do it based on what you want to say yes to, as opposed to what you are trying to say no to.
Hmm. So, and when I started to think about like I wanted to say yes to, when I became a parent, I wanted to say yes to dropping my kid off at school every day. Which was not a thing I had to think about saying yes to before.
Camille: Right.
Toni: So that meant I had to change the way I set up my schedule and it meant I had to say no to some things.
But it was much easier to say no to those things when I knew what I was saying yes to. But I also had to say no to the part of myself. That wanted what that kind of availability and freedom came with because I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the coffees that I had at seven o'clock in the morning with the people who I connected with.
Those were really great. They were additive to my career. So for me it was a bit of an internal struggle, like, wait a minute, you have things that are really important to you now. How are you gonna start to say yes to those things? So we're at the point of, yeah, now I'm boxing with myself.
Toni: Right, because I have to say yes to some things that are important to me and I have to say no to some things that are less important to me that used to be important to me. And now when people start to challenge the things that I'm saying no to, it's not that I'm hearing their voices, I'm hearing my own voices being echoed back to me.
'cause it's much easier for me to say no to people when I think that they're just doing something foolish. It's harder for me to say no when this person is meeting me with expectations that I once co-signed for myself. 'cause now I'm questioning the decision that I'm making. So I think like, you know, sort of like take away, point number one is when setting boundaries, really sitting with, with oneself and being able to say.
What do I wanna say yes to? What does this require me to reconfigure or reshape about my own identity? How do I, you know, give a hug and a kiss to the thing that was really important to me before? And where do I want that to live? I still wanna be able to have those, you know, 7:00 AM power coffee sessions, but they won't be three, four times a week like they were before.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Toni: And if I can. Make sense of that and be okay with that. For myself, it's much easier to do that when other people ask for that because I'm not fighting with myself. I'm not struggling with myself through their voice, and also I know what I'm saying yes to. Does that?
Camille: Mm-hmm. That's yes. Yes. That makes sense. And it's helpful.
Camille: And I think one thing that has really stayed with me that you said once I was asking you about supporting some kind of work thing that was like a bonus. It was like on top of like our regular duties and I was like, oh, I think you'll be great at this, blah, blah, blah. And you said something like, okay, I'm gonna need more information 'cause I'm hesitant to sign up for stuff that doesn't have an end date.
And I was like. Okay. In the moment. And you know what? That thing went on forever and it became a hot mess. And every time we had a meeting that was frustrating or felt like a waste of time, I'm like, dang, Toni. Toni called this. And so I think just like having those even really basic things, yeah. In mind when someone comes to you with something are good and you didn't say no, you were like, I'm gonna need more information because of this thing that I've discovered that is helpful for me in making decisions.
Toni: And you know what? I absolutely remember the person who told me that. And I remember the moment that this person told me that. We were at an event together and I think at the time she was talking about her mother signing up for some kind of committee, and she had said to her mother, like, "of course it's a disaster. It never had an end date." It was like, oh my gosh, this is why so many of the things that I sign up for are a disaster. Date and you find yourself in it.
So you gotta pick up those pearls of wisdom and they have to stay with you. That's certainly one of them. Not signing up for things that have an end date. And I also find that it's an invitation to the other person to really think about what they're trying to get out of this experience and what they're asking for of you.
'cause sometimes people are just excited and they just don't know. And their idea for what you would enjoy or what you would be good at is a beautiful compliment, but it doesn't mean it's what I wanna do. It doesn't mean I'm gonna enjoy it as much as you are. That has happened a lot. Like you are very, very talented.
Camille, you're good at a lot of things. I'm sure people come to you and like, you are gonna love this. And it's like, no, in the 10 minute conversation that I had with you about this, we loved the exchange, but you left that 10 minute conversation and spent three more hours thinking about it, and I left it and was done.
You know why? Because I don't wanna do it past this 10 minute exchange.
Camille: Yes.
Toni: But you had such a powerful exchange with me in these 10 minutes, you think this is how I wanna spend my life.
Camille: Yes.
Toni: And now you've orchestrated an idea of how we're gonna spend our lives together doing this thing. And that's not what I'm, that's not what I need.
That's not me. Loving each other at the same time without it coming at somebody else's expense.
Camille: Yes. And I actually, this reminds me, I was listening to a podcast yesterday and the guest was Zaria Parvez, who was kind of like the mastermind behind Duolingo's social branding strategy I guess.
Camille: And she said, "if you don't know where you're going, distractions will look like opportunities." And I was like, me. If someone says, I think you might be good at this. I'm like, oh my gosh, I might be good at this. And then I'm like, this might be the new direction my life needs to take.
Toni: Right. But I think that is actually, it's not a bad thing, but I do have a, um, uh, like semi mentor, like an occasional mentor.
When I call him, he mentors me. Um, an occasional mentor. Who was talking to me about this? 'cause there was definitely a phase where I'm like I, everything, every idea. What I realized about myself is I'm a high curiosity person and anything that comes across my, you know, field of vision that feels exciting and new and creates a form of curiosity and, and sparks some curiosity in me.
I usually wanna go at it, but I am also a person who probably has like three, maybe four things in my life that I do consistently with a high degree of fidelity and everything else is a little bit of a like. Let's try it. And I think what can happen is if you treat it, let's try it like it's a, no, I've committed to this, right?
This is this, let's try it thing. This is not my marriage. This is not my, my primary day gig. This is not my parenting role. This is not my friendships. This is really just like, I think interior design is really cool. I just wanna hang out in this world for a little bit a time and maybe do a project or two or things of that nature.
If it becomes a thing that is, I wanna go deeper on, then I need to look at the other things and figure out how I make room for it. But it can just be this, let's try it thing. Sometimes your let's try it thing is somebody else's main gig and they want you to engage in their main gig with that kind of fidelity with that kind of consistency, with that kind of energy. But for you, it is just a fun thing, a project, a creative pursuit, a let's try it. And that's when knowing what people need of you, how much time you realistically have to give, when the end date is helpful. So going back to that mentor, what he said to me was, on any given date, this project that you're thinking about, how much energy do you really have to dedicate to this?
How much energy? And when I'm coaching clients, I often go back to that very, very basic question. So you've set this goal. Sometimes you'll set a goal 'cause you think it's good for you. You wanna person, you wanna be evolved. So you set the goal and then it's like, whoa, how much energy do you, do you think you have for this Realistically scale of one to 10?
And oftentimes people will come with like a four. So then I say something like, well, what does level four effort look like then? Hmm. If you have level four energy, what does a level four effort look like? Because if you're being asked to put in level eight energy, but you only got level four, now we start to encroach on the boundaries.
Now we start to get resentful. Now we start to get whatever, and now you're breaking promises to yourself, so you're on your own boundaries. And you get into that dance with yourself that I was talking about in the beginning. So in some, I would say it's not a bad thing to get these distractions, especially if they feed your curiosity.
But to calibrate the level of time and energy you have to invest in them with the ask so that you can be upfront with them and say, this is all I have to give to this or to yourself and say, this is all I have to give to this. And you're not entering a contract with these sort of mixed expectations.
Camille: And it's better for everyone at the end of the day, no matter how that initial conversation goes. By the end, you're like, thank goodness we talked about that.
Toni: Yes. It rarely goes left. I must say like when it comes from this place of, from the beginning, Hey, I got this much time and this much space, it rarely goes left. Where it can is when you're like, ah, I don't know, I could or whatever, and the person's like, yeah, you could. And then they take the in and you move. There's one time where I actually got really, really specific on defining something and this person on the other end was like, well, no, it's no big deal. You can do this and you can do that, and you can do this, and after the, you can the third you can do that. I was like, this is not gonna work. Actually, we can actually just end. In fact, I just I am taking back, I am revoking the initial offer. Actually, there's nothing here. There's nothing here because there, there is no part, even in this conversation, I'm, I see the boundaries not being respected and that's when we activated, not today moment.
Like not today. Whatever I just put on the table is now off.
Camille: Yes. So actually that's a perfect example because i'm assuming to have that conversation and that awareness, you have to know like your boundaries, who you are and be able to, in that moment be like, you know what? This isn't working for me and I'm gonna call it out right now.
And so I'm assuming there was a time in your life where you didn't have good boundaries, or at least were at the early stage of managing them and figuring out, so was there a specific catalyst moment that you remember where you were like, this needs to change.
I am handling this right now.
Toni: Very clearly. Two one was sort of like maybe the big moment moment and another was a refresher. So the first one was I was working as a consultant and I had just taken on a really big contract, and the work was just exhausting me. It was, it was burning me out. I got a new leader at the time, uh, and she is an amazing woman and she, um, she had three kids and she had just come from running a whole business and running our like Latin America business, and then moved into the US business to take on a leadership role there.
So she understood what it meant to like really be responsible for a company's bottom line and as a result, I think she just had a much clearer idea of like what it meant to invest your time and how time and energy were indeed a finite resource. So in any event, I'm sitting on the couch in one of our offices and I'm kind of like having this deep moment where I'm like, "oh my God, nobody respects me. It is too much. They keep asking me to do all of this." And she had a very like tough love moment with me in a very calm, gentle, but not soft voice, she said to me. Um. "So like what are you really angry at? Because it sounds like you're mad at yourself."
Camille: Dang.
Toni: Cold.
Camille: Yeah.
Toni: Cold. She says, and what she didn't do was gaslight me in the space of being like, you should have just said no.
Mm-hmm. 'cause she understood the pressures that I was working under and that it would've been hard to say no. But what she said was six months ago, or three months ago, six weeks ago, when it was time to make the decision about what you were going to do, you could have said yes to this and been okay and caused like peace and harmony, or you could have said no to it and caused some friction and you said yes to it, and you prioritized that like unhealthy peace in the moment.
And now six weeks from now you're dealing with the fallout. Mm. So she's like, so you really said no to yourself in order to say yes to this other person. Mm. And the person you're mad at is the person who's six weeks ago said, no to herself, and she's like, and so both situations are going to be hard, right?
Saying no to the boss who wants you to do the thing right now is going to be very hard in this moment. I'm not telling you that it's not, but is it as hard, is it as bad as what you feel right now? Because if it's not, then you should have dealt with that six weeks ago and you wouldn't be here.
So that's when I started to say these things of just like in the moment, if I can stop, what would my future self thank me for? What is the decision I can make right now that six weeks I would be so happy I made, and what am I willing to put on the line? How much currency do I have to risk it?
Because boundaries are not always free, especially when you live in a world and live in a body where people just expect you to be a constant resource to them. So I would've absolutely dealt with some fallout had I, you know, defined clear boundaries around how I wanted to relate to this project.
Absolutely. But none of it would've been near what I was dealing with six weeks later when I was struggling with the things. So I don't say that to say that every single person just walk up in there and be like, mm-hmm. No doing this. Sometimes you get something done, sometimes you have to deliver.
Sometimes you have to keep that job because it's doing something for you. But I think if you take that step to say, six months from now, what do I wanna be proud of? What do I wanna be thanking myself for? What do I wanna be really happy that I preserved? You find yourself coming into negotiations around boundaries with a little bit more clarity and saying, I can say yes to this.
I must say no to that. I can say yes to this amount of this. I cannot give more than that. I will not give more than that. So that was like one piece, watershed moment. Absolutely. Literally can see us having the conversation.
The second moment was about that business deal where the person was asking me to basically like come on as an investor, as an advisor into a company.
And at the time it was activating all of my stuff because I wanted to get into investing. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I don't know anything about this. No one in my family knows anything about this. Yeah, I'm dealing with my insecurity and I'm working with someone who is a quote unquote expert in this space.
And he's like, yeah, well, you know, it's only gonna take you this amount of time or this amount of space, and I know that it's gonna take more than that. And after about the third or fourth time you know. I'm like, what is happening here? Like, why do I in my gut feel like this is so wrong? So in the moment is not when I said, I'm taking this off the table.
Toni: Actually hung up, gave like a half no, half yes. Left it ambiguous. And this person who wanted, you know, I was the solution to their problem. They were not the solution to mine kept. Mm-hmm. So this is when I sit down with my maybe then 7-year-old daughter and I ask her for advice as I often do. And I love that said, um, you know what, if you got really excited to do something and you kind of said yes to something, but then you don't wanna do it anymore. And we talked it through and she said, oh my gosh. She said, well, mommy, it sounds like you know, you thought you wanted to do it and then you learned more about it and you decided that you didn't.
And I said, that's exactly what it is. So what would you say? She was like, "no, thank you."
Camille: Simple as that.
Toni: Simple as that. She said, "you just say no, thank you." And I think in that moment I felt so embarrassed by, yeah. You know what I mean by just the simplicity of it, that it was hard for me to come to this person and to be able to say I was ready to do this when I thought it was one thing.
I'm recognizing that it is not that thing. So no thank you. Because what I was working with was like, how am I gonna convince them that I'm right? Right. And I think what my daughter didn't need in that moment was to be convinced that I was right. She was just like, what do you mean? Like the answer is no, thank you.
It would be as if somebody put eight extra carrots on your plate. No, thank you. I don't want them like, and so those two moments have really stayed with me.
Toni: One, because the first one was such a big thing around looking at myself and saying, yes, you know, you are upset with yourself because six weeks ago you chose to make a decision that was not in your best interest.
But the second part of it, of like, what does it mean to just be able to say no, thank you. Without having to convince the other person that they are wrong for encroaching on your boundaries. Mm. Because that's not that's not my responsibility. That's not my work. I don't have to choose to do that.
I could, if you were someone who I had a deep relationship and I cared about, but in this situation, neither is true, so.
Mm-hmm. It
is just a no thank you, and if there's an explanation, this is not what I initially thought it was. Respectfully, no, thank you. That's it.
Camille: Yes. And I love that it stays at no thank you, because I can already feel myself in that situation being like, but I can connect you with someone else who can.
Like, I'm still gonna solve this problem for you, even though I'm not doing it in the original way. And that is hard for me to stop at. No thank you.
Toni: Hard to stop at. No, thank you. And here's the thing, Camille. People know that. Mm-hmm. Right.
Toni: And so as I was, what made that situation so visceral and probably why I remember it so much is not just because of the like wisdom bucket that my daughter dropped on me.
She does that all the time. So that's nothing new. But it was watching the back and forth exchange with this other person. Every single time I would get close to stating a boundary of like, oh no, but it's this, oh no, you're asking for this, but your business partner said it's this. Oh no, you're doing this, you're that.
It was always countered with an explanation of how it wasn't what I thought it was going to be, and so I'm like, oh, this person is trying to win. Mm. This person is trying to win. This person is trying to achieve a goal, and going back to that definition, you know, partnering with this person and engaging with this person is loving them in their project at my expense.
This relationship is not one in which this person is really considering mutual gain, or if they believe they're considering mutual gain, they don't understand enough about me to know what's important to me, to understand what mutual gain means for me, and that's not their responsibility. So as I'm trying to like move into, well this, and this is what it means and this is what, it's whatever, I'm asking this person to be responsible for protecting my boundaries.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Toni: That's not their job.
Camille: Right.
Toni: That's not their job. It is not his job to protect my boundaries. It is not his job to protect my time. It's not his job to protect my brand. He's trying to win, he's trying to close a deal. And it won't be with me. That was, that was super helpful because then it also moved me from this space of like.
Oh, this person is doing me wrong. To like, no, this person is centering their agenda and that's not the relationship that I need to be in right now. I don't need to do this. It's also a really important thing from a boundary standpoint. Do I need to do this? Do I wanna do it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because if I don't need to do it, I don't wanna do it.
We've already, we've already crossed two. Too past. Too bad.
Camille: True. Yes. Coming at this from the perspective of, I would say I'm on like the early side of figuring out my boundaries where I'm like, okay, I kind of understand what this means, but we're getting there in the enforcing and having clarity. But i'm really curious to know what are the different challenges you face when you were in that early stage versus the ones that you face now?
Because I'm assuming they just change versus like, oh yeah, I'm completely good. I never have any problems now that I have boundaries.
Toni: Yeah, they, you know what I would say, I just split the difference and say that not only do they not go away, sometimes they don't even change. Hmm. I think that. We often see other people as the solution to our problems, and when our problems are in front of our face, it's hard to imagine why this other person solving our problem isn't as great for them as it is for us. And we'll tell ourselves, I'll tell myself all types of stories about why this person should be solving my problem or what I perceive to be their problem the way I perceive them to be. So when I assert a boundary that involves me not solving someone else's problem the way they want me to solve it, there's always friction.
Camille: Mm, mm-hmm.
Toni: There's never not friction. The big question is, how much friction can I tolerate in the relationship with this person? And is this friction healthy? Right. Like, is this friction healthy and in the richest and in the best relationships It is. And in the relationships that don't tend to serve me, it's not.
And they usually kind of melt away. So the hard part, uh, or the things I've lost have been relationships that should have gone away, but went away before I expected them to.
You know, when I was probably in my, oh, let's just, let's skip the time zone years ago, um, I, you know, thinking about someone who I was really, really, really great friends with and probably could still be today.
It got to a point where I said to myself, you know, this person never calls me, which is totally the pot calling the kettle ceramic because I. Don't call people either.
Camille: Right.
Toni: But I'm like, this person never calls me and I feel like I'm doing so much to maintain the relationship. And I said to myself, um, you know, I'm gonna draw a boundary.
I'm gonna stop calling this person. Mm-hmm. If we talk, it'll be because they called me. You know, years went by and we didn't.
Mm-hmm.
And it broke my heart because like, oh my gosh. Like I would've called this person like one of my best friends. And I realized when I stopped calling them, we stopped talking.
But the boundary forced a realization for me. And what I lost wasn't really the friendship, it was the illusion of the friendship. Because the and I guess I lost whatever benefit I got when I called them and they decided to pick up my phone. Yeah. Like, and that was real. Those are real losses.
They hurt me. They still hurt me when I think about them.
Camille: That hurts me right now. Hurts. I really feel that. Yeah.
Toni: And I do too. My husband often says, like, you still feel pain around that. But it is, it is okay. Because what I gained back was space and peace of mind and energy that was going into trying to anticipate how this person felt about me, where they were going, when they were gonna pick up, what mood they were gonna be in, how much they were gonna invest in, how much I had to do.
I just got back so much energy. So you do lose things that can be really valuable and important to you, but like that's okay. Like there is loss in life. We lose a lot of things, but we often lose a lot of things that we never really had to begin with. And the relationship that we had wasn't the kind of relationship that allowed me and this person to love each other the way we needed to love each other simultaneously.
That wasn't, that's not the kind of love I wanted in that relationship, and it doesn't mean that they're a bad person. That took me a long time to figure out, and it doesn't mean I have to convince myself that they did me wrong. It just is like they would not, could not, did not want to give me what I needed in that moment in time. And when I stopped reaching for it, you know, I stopped grabbing at pieces of it and the pieces were never good enough to begin with.
Camille: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Toni: So oftentimes like when the boundary comes and the line is drawn, it's not so much the thing that you lose. It's the idea. Now people lose jobs based on setting boundaries. Be clear. And that's a real loss like that. Mm-hmm. So I'm not telling people run around, I just go set boundaries with your boss, it's all in your head.
It never was a real, no, no, no, no, no. You have bills to figure out how you manage that.
Camille: Right.
Toni: You do lose. Yes. You lose. But I find that the net impact of it is absolutely gain.
Like, you know, I absolutely gain more than I, than I've ever lost.
Camille: Yes. Hard before you're at the end knowing, looking back and seeing that. But yes, definitely makes sense. And I wanna go back to one when you said.
Camille: What is yourself like six weeks from now gonna thank you for?
I think in the past we've talked about you kind of have this philosophy around this triangle like balance, and so if you wanna keep this private because no, you probably need a trademark it then we don't have to talk about it, but if you wanna share, I think it's, it's so good.
Toni: Yeah, I mean maybe I'll maybe I'll regret saying this out loud, but I really don't think it's that profound and ChatGPT would probably steal it anyway.
Like once it's stealing ideas from our mind. Um, but whatever. But I still love the productivity hack, so but I went to a I went to this like week long amazing leadership retreat with this, uh, nonprofit called Rockwood Leadership Institute years ago. And a part of the leadership exercise was to kind of think about your mission, your personal mission or vision purpose.
That's what it was. It was purpose. Mm-hmm. And I really struggled. I mean, I was at a point where I was like, you know, in a personal transition phase and I was really struggling and after about a week of deep contemplation in, in the woods, like very, very great facilitation, like much credit to the people who were there.
I was still lost at the end. And, you know, my work not theirs and. Something came to me in this moment of like, it wasn't a clear purpose as much as it was a clear way of being and it was impact and it was joy and it was sustainability. And yes, I've come to to appreciate that it's also environmental sustainability, but at the time it was personal sustainability.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Toni: And that whenever any one of those was too far outta whack, it really drove down the other two. And I said this to a boss one time, and I said, yeah, it's impact, joy, sustainability 'cause I, once I discovered it, I was just like telling everybody, I put it for myself. I'm telling everybody. And he goes, well, it's almost like the, like two outta three thing.
You can really only have two outta three. And he said, you know, it's like you could either be cheap and fast, but not good or good and fast, but not cheap or cheap and good, but not fast. Right? And I was like, yeah, no, this not the same triangle. You know, he was very clear like, I love the theory, but actually the way that it works in real science as this.
And I was like, no, no, it really doesn't. Like that's not, I totally reject that. I reject those restrictions. And another example of just like, you know, you can't expect other people to.
Camille: Yeah, get it.
Toni: To your thing or even if they get it, like to hold it for you to hold your mm-hmm. With as much fidelity as you need to hold it for yourself.
So. It was interesting because on the one hand he was just like, that's bogus. You can't have two outta three. But it became a really interesting framework for the two of us. And we would talk about where I was in my work because I was leading this big project and this is the one that another, uh, you know, my other sort of like, so he was like my big boss.
And then this woman who gave me that truth nugget was my boss underneath him.
Yeah.
So as he and I are talking about this and why I feel so tired and unappreciated and all the things I said, uh, well, I'm having a lot of, um, impact. And he's like, yeah, but it seems like maybe the sustainability is dragging down the joy.
I was like, yeah, that's it. Like it's ha it's costing me so much that there's no joy in it. Right? But there have also been times when I've worked on things where it's just pure joy and it's real sustainable, and that's beautiful and a luxury, but there's no impact. And after a while I'm like. Am I sleeping right now?
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like which with sleep is good, I've come to understand the value of sleep, but it's just like, what is the impact of this also? So for me it really is like being able to see all three and to keep them balanced. And almost, almost every time when I start to feel off-center, out of equilibrium, it's because I've allowed some part of my life portfolio to tax, one of those three areas, the impact, the joy or the sustainability. And then things have to shift to get it back, back in alignment. So that's what I'm saying yes to, right? Like that's what the boundary is around, is around keeping that triangle there and present and as aligned as possible.
Camille: Yes. So good.
And I know you've said like you can, you know, pick your own points of the triangle, but I, I do feel like that really sits with a lot of folk, like when I even mention it, I've had people follow up and be like, what were those three again? I'm like, let me get it. So thank you for sharing.
Camille: And you mentioned your daughter earlier, and I really often think of boundaries as something you develop as an adult, but I've also seen on social media now, like young parents parenting and teaching boundaries in a way that I think.
In the comments. Sometimes people are like, Ooh, I don't like this. This isn't parenting. So, how have you kind of found yourself teaching boundaries at home?
Toni: You know what, what's interesting, Camille, as you say it, and this just came to me in this moment, is that I think a lot of children are born with boundaries.
Hmm. What I try more to do is not teach the unlearning of the boundaries.
Camille: Yeah, that's good.
Toni: Because this is where I say like the, there is loss in it and, and there is friction. Um, I have a very, very intentionally headstrong kid, and I say intentionally because I feel like I asked for her to come that way.
And I remind myself of that when I talk to my parents or, you know, I talk to my dad and I talk to my friends like, woo, she's got a, she's got some clarity on her. Yeah. But. A lot of these boundaries were very clear with her from the beginning. And actually there are moments where I see her compromise on them, and it actually breaks my heart a little bit.
Right. Like getting older and wanting to fit in and wanting to Yeah. And I see more around things around like her personal choices around what she wants to wear. Like she comes into the room and she's got her outfit and it's all fly, nine times outta 10, i'm like, oh, that's awesome. I love that pattern layering. I love that. Whatever. Yeah. But that one time on 10 where I'm just like, girl, why'd you put those things together and you can see her kind of melt a little bit?
Camille: Mm. Yeah.
Toni: That's when I realized like I'm doing for her, the thing that I experience when people are encroaching on my boundaries, which is I am asking her to love my choices at the expense of hers.
Right. Asking her to honor my style at the expense of hers. No, you cannot be outside when it's freezing cold with a sleeveless top on. That's actually, yes, seeing, but if you choose to layer plaid and more plaid and a floral print, what I'm really more concerned about is people looking at you being like, who let you wear that?
But that's my stuff,
Camille: right.
Toni: Yours. It's the nature of our relationship is that it's my job to actually set the guardrails and create the space for you to be who you are in this world. And so now I have asked you to, like, I have asked her in that situation to make it easier for me to do that. You know, play smaller so I don't have to work as hard to protect that space for her.
And so, on the one hand, I think that what people are often reacting to in the, in the proverbial comments is. Watching people's children violate their own personal boundaries as parents, right? Because ooh, those can come at those boundaries. Right? And there are, and I have to say to her like, this is a boundary.
This is a space, this is for mommy. We had to have a really clear conversation because she wondered why, you know, we weren't gonna have another kid, she asked, well, why can't I, I wanna have a sibling. And I said, I hear that and I appreciate that. And like, I understand that, but that's not mommy's choice.
And she gets really dramatic and she's like, well, I'm gonna die alone.
Camille: Oh no.
Toni: And I was like, well, to be honest, that's probably gonna happen anyway. But I said to her, I was just like, listen, I understand that this choice hurts you. I do. And I hear that and I'm happy to hear that for as much as you wanna talk to me about it.
But it is a choice that I'm making for me.
Camille: Yeah.
Toni: It's a choice that I'm making for my wellbeing. And we had that conversation when she was five
Camille: mm.
Toni: It is a choice that I'm making for me and for my wellbeing. And so I think one of the best lessons that, we can be taught as, as young people, as growing people, right?
Like, 'cause we're always a growing person, no matter how old we are. And then I hope we're teaching, uh, the young people in our lives comes from like where we set our boundaries from a place of peace. And from a place of clarity. And I hope that that actually becomes the thing that she picks up on.
So in those moments when I do say like, oh, I don't like that outfit, that she's able to say, I recognize that you don't like that outfit, but this is the thing that's important to me in the same way that I'm able to say, I recognize you want a sibling, but it is important to me to not to have another kid, candidly.
Camille: Yeah.
Toni: And that's a really hard thing to do because that's not everybody, everybody doesn't have that choice to make. And I do, and I choose to be open with her about the choice that I've made. So yeah. It's work. Yeah. It's work. It's deep.
Camille: Yeah.
Yeah. No, I love your relationship just from what I've seen, obviously, hearing stories as a third party, but I love the relationship that you have and the conversations you can have. And how many parents would go to their 7-year-old for advice and listen, and then let it, like, sit with them.
Toni: She's very good. She's very clear. She lands the point.
Camille: Yes. Um, so thank you for sharing her with us. To wrap this up, I think there's so, so many good things that people can pull from this conversation. So I'm excited. If I hear any feedback, I'll let you know. But the question that I'm asking everyone at the end of this season is
Camille: If you were currently in kindergarten, what would you bring in for show and tell?
Toni: If I was in kindergarten, oh, I'm going, I'm like totally going into it. Um, in this moment I just bought a really new, beautiful rug.
Camille: Oh,
Toni: and it's, it was not expensive, but it's really, really nice. And if I could have convinced my parents to let me drag this, my tin rug into kinder, uh, for show and tell, uh, I would, and I would lay it on the ground and just roll around.
Um, I, I love design and I love I love rugs in particular because I like to have my space be kind of very, um. Peaceful. But rugs are a nice way to invite color and energy into the room without it being so in your face 'cause it's on the floor. Yes. Um, and then I can keep the decoration around it very like subdued, but a really cool rug.
So I got this really nice Persian rug that didn't cost me a lot, but it's having tons of impact in the room.
Camille: Love that
Toni: would be what I would bring whole grown 5-year-old self to kinder.
Camille: I love it. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining and sharing your wisdom. I think you might be the most quoted person that I know, so thank you for giving us some, some quotes, some quotables.
Toni: I appreciate the invitation. Camilla, it's always a pleasure to sit with you.
Camille: Thank you. Come back anytime.
Thanks for listening to my conversation with Toni. If you want to keep up with her, you can find her social media accounts in the show notes.
Please subscribe to the show anywhere you get your podcasts and leave a review to let me know what you think. You can also get updates on guests, episode releases, and more by following the show on Instagram @holdthedoorpod.
I'll be back next week with an episode exploring the concept of staying quote unquote two steps ahead. See you then.
