Hold the Door
A weekly podcast about how underrepresented folks are surviving and thriving in the entertainment industry. Stay connected on Instagram @holdthedoorpod.
The views and opinions expressed are those of the host and guests alone.
Hold the Door
Mentorship with Karen Horne
This week we’re discussing mentorship with my guest Karen Horne. Karen explains what mentorship actually is and how it’s shown up in her career on both sides of the mentor/mentee relationship. Hope you enjoy.
If you want to keep up with Karen, you can check out her Instagram and LinkedIn.
Make sure to subscribe to Hold the Door on your favorite listening platform. You can also get updates on guests, episode releases, and more by following the show on Instagram @holdthedoorpod.
Camille: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the host and guests alone.
Karen: I think the true importance of having mentorship in the entertainment industry is, is that we know that it is so insular and it's a little incestuous.
There's nepotism that happens And a mentor kind of gives you an even playing field.
Camille: Hello, welcome to Hold the Door. I’m happy you’re here. This week we’re discussing mentorship with my guest Karen Horne. Karen explains what mentorship actually is and how it’s shown up in her career on both sides of the mentor/mentee relationship. Hope you enjoy.
Karen Horne is a visionary strategist with a passion for driving transformative initiatives that champion inclusivity and foster collaboration. She is an affiliate partner at 3CG Ventures, a coaching and consulting firm dedicated to empowering organizations and Individuals.
Most recently, Karen served as the Senior Vice President of Diversity, Equity & Inclusion (DEI), North America at Warner Bros. Discovery. In this role, she directed a team of 12 professionals and spearheaded global talent pipeline programs and organizational partnership strategies aimed at enhancing the acquisition, retention, and promotion of high-potential diverse talent. As a strategic advisor to HR, Karen supported executive talent acquisition, implemented enterprise-wide training initiatives, facilitated the formation of business and employee resource groups, and resolved diversity-related conflicts. She was a trusted C-Suite advisor and consulted with external advocacy and social justice groups on innovative DEI strategies.
A recognized trailblazer in the entertainment industry, Karen has led initiatives across creative talent development, workforce, content, and production. Her partnership with these teams ensured authenticity in storytelling and led to the development of DEI training programs for production crews, enhancing understanding and facilitating conflict Resolution.
Karen previously spent over a decade at NBCUniversal as Senior Vice President of Programming Talent Development and Inclusion, where she set industry standards for talent initiatives both in front of and behind the camera. Her impressive career also includes significant contributions at Nickelodeon, The Walt Disney Company, ABC Entertainment and ABC Sports. Karen also co-produced the Emmy Award-winning animated series “Spawn” for HBO.
In addition to her corporate roles, Karen is a Governor-appointed member of the California Film Commission, where she plays a crucial role in overseeing efforts to ensure California remains the global leader in media creation.
Karen actively contributes to various organizations as a board member of Disability Belongs, The Urban League of Greater San Francisco Bay Area, The Black House Foundation, and The Alliance of Women Directors. Through her leadership and commitment to DEI, Karen Horne continues to make a lasting impact in the entertainment industry and beyond.
Karen, thank you so much for joining the podcast.
Karen: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Camille: Yes. Today we are gonna talk about, I feel like this is one of the biggest topics that comes up, honestly, and once you enter the workforce, but especially in the entertainment industry which is mentorship.
So I think it's something folks are like. Constantly on the lookout for and want and need to help them succeed. And I think while mentorship is kind of everywhere, sometimes it's hard to feel like, oh, this is actually working for me. So I'm excited to hear your perspective on this.
Camille: But first I always start off the podcast with how you got into the industry and if entertainment was always the plan.
So. I know your early career, you started as, or you had stints at ABC as the executive assistant to the president of a BC entertainment. As well as positioned at ABC television network group and ABC sports. Mm-hmm. Um, and then you also attended Montclair State University School of Communication and Media.
Yeah. And I've said before that you want to become. Barbara Walters growing up.
Karen: Yes. I, I sometimes wonder if people know who Barbara Walters is as this audience gets younger and younger. But she was a trailblazing broadcast journalist. Yes. And yes. Yes. That's what I wanted to do.
Camille: Yeah. So it sounds like entertainment kind of was always the plans.
Yeah. But. How did that start? What got you interested?
Karen: So my sister, I have an older sister who studied our high school, had a program called Communications, arts and Science Training, and we had our own television station. And she, uh, came home, uh, she took the, she was one of the first students to take that class there.
It was a two year program in our high school. And she came home and one of her assignments was to look at a multi-camera show and to say which camera was doing the shots, like how many cameras there were. Mm-hmm. And it was the first time that I started looking at television in a different way as opposed to just these characters on a screen, but more so recognizing that there are people behind what we're seeing.
And it really just piqued my interest in it. And I really kind of followed my sister's footsteps. She also studied broadcasting in college. And so I. I followed her footsteps and studied broadcasting, and it really, uh, was, I'd never had a plan B. It was the only thing that I always wanted to do. Yeah, I would often say like, it's either this or bagging bags at a grocery store someplace because I don't have a plan B.
Which I think nowadays is probably not a good idea. Um, but but I, yes, it's always something that I wanted to do. And my senior year of college, I got a job working at ABC in New York. And yeah, that just started my trajectory.
Camille: Yeah. Did you ever imagine it going? How it's your career's gone?
Karen: No, and I think that's an important thing because I, you know, when I started at ABC, I was a receptionist and then I just quickly got a job at ABC sports and I'm a huge sports fanatic.
As I came in, I was watching the tennis open, the US Open on my phone huge sports fanatic and I thought, this is it for me. This is where I'm going to stay. Uh, I'll back up a little bit though, because I talked about wanting to be Barbara Walters.
Camille: Yeah.
Karen: And as a receptionist. I got to, I was on a receptionist on an executive floor, so I got to go to a lot of the big events.
That's when the networks were still spending a lot of money and doing a lot to like, cater to their advertisers and their affiliates. And so I got to go to a big thing where I got to meet Barbara Walters. Oh, wow. I was really, really amazing. And I said to her, you're the reason why I studied broadcasting.
I, I wanna do what you do. And she was really, really generous. But then I took I took a step back and I looked at the line of people waiting to meet Barbara Walters and the line of people waiting to meet her boss. And his line was much longer than hers. And I said, who is he? And what does he do?
Because she's Barbara Walters and more people wanna meet him than her. And that's when I learned about the offices that I eventually start. Sit sitting in. And so, got a job working at ABC Sports and the person I worked for was you know, a rising star in the company and in the, in the industry.
And he got promoted to be executive vice president of the network group, which means entertainment reported to him, sports news, all of the different parts of the networks reported into him. And then he was promoted again to be president of ABC entertainment. And he moved me from New York to Los.
To Los Angeles with him. Okay? And each step of the way I thought, okay, ABC entertainment, this is what I wanna do. I wanna be current executive or development executive. And every step of the way I thought, oh, this is what I wanna do. And what that tells me, and, and I hope most people recognize this in going into the industry is, is that you just don't know what you don't know when you go into the industry.
That, and particularly now since the industry is changing so rapidly to be, uh. You know, to be nimble and be able to adapt and, and take the, uh, the chance of learning something or doing something that you didn't necessarily think you want to do, but you do it and you find out, oh wow, this is kind of cool.
And I'm so glad I had the opportunity to do it because each step of my career, I believe, really made me most prepared for the following step after that, right? So wherever you are, be present and learn so much from it. But I think for me, for sure. Like working at the network and knowing about news and sports and all of that, and then working in animation and working at the studios and all this, all of that really made me most prepared to be the best person to fit the jobs that I wor I was in.
Camille: Totally. Yeah. That's great. And it's, it's good to know. Or to hear. 'cause I think you know, looking back it always makes sense, but then when you're in the moment it's like, ah, I don't know. Yes.
Karen: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a desire now for people to advance so quickly.
Camille: Yes.
Karen: And I'm not sure that I like that.
I mean, I think no one should be an assistant. I was an assistant for nine years and it was just because there was a time where people weren't being promoted off desks as quickly as they are now. And I learned so much though. I mean, the person who was president of ABC Entertainment was a guy named Bob Iger.
Mm-hmm. Who is, most people know, CEO of Disney, and wrote a book on leadership. And that's how I learned to be a leader. By working with him. And so I don't know that I would've learned as much as I did in two years. Right. Um, certainly my, the way I lead is not exactly like the way he leads, but certainly a lot of his best practices are stuff that are things that I have incorporated into how I lead today.
Camille: Yeah. That's amazing.
Camille: okay, so when we spoke about mentorship on our prep call mm-hmm. We got pretty quickly into the differences between mentorship and sponsorship. So for the listeners, would you mind kind of describing or defining those for us please?
Karen: Sure. So a mentor is someone who you can be assigned for instance you know, I as a part of different organizations, someone says to me, will you be a mentor for this group of people?
And I'm sure I meet them. I'm gonna mentor them if, certainly it's great if we have a connection. If you're a writer, I'll, I'll mentor you. If you're executive, I'll mentor you. And you do that. And with mentorships, you make a, a mutual agreement about like how often you're gonna meet and, you give them advice along their way. A good mentor gives their mentee advice and helps 'em out whenever they can.
A sponsor is someone. Who is dedicated and committed to your success. Now, mentors should be that as well. But as a sponsor, the difference for me is, is that I will make calls for you. I will. It is, I will make calls for you.
I will be dedicated to your success from your, where you are now to wherever throughout your entire career. Mentors generally have a timeline line on it, especially if you're doing it through a program at work or. Through an organization. For me, I kind of, the jersey in me is like, once you're in, you're in, you're family.
Yeah. And I, and I won't, I don't like, throw anyone away once I believe in them but sponsors are really committed. They will make calls for you, they will go on the line for you. It's, it's a different, it's an elevated mentorship and it's a, it's quite a difference. And so also the difference is, is that I think that with mentors, anyone could say to someone, Hey, if you have time, I would love, could you mentor me?
Sponsorship is more organic than that. And I think it's like I will sponsor someone if they've been on my team, if they've been through a writing program that I've done or something like that, I will be more apt to sponsor someone that way. It's something that usually the person who is sponsoring says, I, I believe in you.
I want to see you succeed. Mm-hmm. As opposed to someone else asking someone to mentor them.
Karen: and I think the true importance of having mentorship in the entertainment industry is, is that we know that it is so insular and it's a little incestuous.
There's nepotism that happens in every place, but we see it a lot maybe 'cause we work in this industry, we see it so often. Mm-hmm. And a mentor kind of gives you an even playing field. You know, if you are, if you have a mentor who's been in the industry. Who's worked at a different company or something like that, that gives you that in, in that industry potentially or in that space, so that company that you might not have had before.
So having mentors, and in a perfect world sponsors, mm-hmm in this industry, particularly when we know that a lot of it is like, who you know, is so, so helpful. Probably more so than most other industries.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Camille: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I think I've always thought of the sponsorship part of it as like someone who will speak your name in the rooms you're not in. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so that does make sense. 'cause I think mentorship in my experience has been a lot of like, just advice and kind of helping work through problems.
Mm-hmm. But not necessarily going through it with you. Mm-hmm. Just like, okay. Good luck. And then I think also mentorship. A lot of times I think it can be informal where you might not ever say, Hey, you're my mentor, or would you be my mentor? And folks will be like, oh yeah, they're kind of an informal mentor.
I get advice. So
Karen: there is a formality in some mentorships too, which are great, like Yes, and it's both of them. I agree with you. It's both of them. It's, it is, you know, someone saying like, I applied to this program, will you send a, you know, a note for me? Sure, I'll do that. Yes. That's, you know, that's not even a mentorship to me.
That's just something you do because you can't.
Camille: Yeah. And so for sponsorship, would you say, because the person who's gonna be the sponsor is often the one who's like, Hey, I see something in you. Mm-hmm. Can those even be informal or do you feel like those are pretty clearly defined?
Karen: Uh, you know, I think they're probably, sponsors can be probably more informal than mentorships because it's not something like mentorships are generally assigned. Mm-hmm. Like, like they are certain, you know, there's a time p period to it. I'm gonna mentor you for this season, I'm gonna mentor you for whatever.
Um, sponsors is like lifelong for me. So I like, I feel like my oftentimes sponsorships are less defined and less. Formal mm-hmm. Than a mentorship. Um, they're certainly less known, like people have known about mentors and talked about mentors forever, but sponsors is like, you have had them throughout your career.
People have probably you know, without labeling it, I certainly, like, there are people that when they ask me to refer them to a writing program as an example mm-hmm. I'll send a note or I'll, I often say to them, you write it, I'll zhuzh it up and send a note. And I'll do that. But if it's someone that I'm sponsoring, I'll get on the phone, I'll call them, and I'll say, you have to go that extra mile.
You'll go the extra mile. For instance, I, you know, I, I mentored someone and, and they were in a different writing program. I think we're gonna talk about her a little bit later on. Um, so I'll just wait until you bring up
Camille: Okay. That'll be a little easter egg. Exactly.
Camille: Are there any onscreen portrayals of mentorship or sponsorship.
On TV or film that you, that like stand out to you?
Karen: Yeah. You know, when, you know, I thought about this and there, I think there's a ton of them. Certainly the one I think is probably most well known is Karate Kid. Mr. Miyagi, right? Yeah. Uhhuh. But just because of the nature of what it is, television or film, there should be conflict in the relationship.
Mm-hmm. And a good mentor or sponsor relationships shouldn't have conflict in it. Mm. So when you think about, like, even in that there's probably some conflict in their relationship, but when you think about like the Devil Wears Prada or Succession or like all of those things, you have elements of mentorship in them, right?
Uh, I think there's a lot of animated stuff that probably has mentorships in them. But because of the nature of the storytelling aspect of it, they're often. Filled with conflict or whatever, and. In my opinion, a good mentor mentee relationship should be conflict free. Mm-hmm. So, I'm just gonna leave it at Mr.
Miyagi and say like that and, and even that, yeah. And Karate kid had conflict in it. Right. But you know. And there's you know, the show Hacks, there's mentor ment, there's a lot of them out there. Um, but like I said, a lot of them are, are filled with conflict just because that makes good story and it doesn't necessarily make a good example of how a mentor mentee relationship should be.
Camille: Totally, yeah. I think a lot of those too, it's like the mentee is there against their will in some ways. Mm-hmm. They're like, you're gonna learn how I tell you to learn. Exactly.
Karen: Yeah. And they're like, which is awful. Yeah. That is awful.
Camille: Yes. So when I think of a mentor, and even in some of those examples, it's usually like someone who's older or more experienced is the one who's like mentoring to the mentee. And but also in those examples you gave, there is always some learning the other direction. But you've been a mentor at every stage of your career. Mm-hmm. And have just basically learned to adjust accordingly. So can you describe what it looked like to be a mentor when you were toward the beginning of your career, and then how it looks different now?
Karen: Yeah. You know, I think I think as you grow and learn your, the way you advise people or mentor them, changes along the way and the level of your expertise or your help, if you will, changes as well.
Certainly I think that when I am, you know, mentoring, even in the early stages, I worked for someone who was really powerful in the organization. So people would often come to me and say, Hey, do you think. He would like this, or Hey, can you help us with this? Or we're thinking about doing this, what would it be like for that?
And it was just kind of, uh, giving advice because of my position in proximity to the president of the division. Yes. As someone who's worked with him for many, many years and. Good advice still. I wouldn't necessarily say that was a mentor, but peer-to-peer mentorship is when you, uh, and happens at all levels
you know, like, I remember saying to someone who went on to be hugely successful, you know, she was thinking about leaving ABC at the time to go work for a different network. And I said to her, just because I heard, you know, Bob's voice in my head. So many years saying like, don't threaten to leave unless you are willing to go.
Because if they say no to you, you know, then you're going to have to deal with that. Yeah, I mean that was good advice for her. I don't know if we talked a lot back and forth about our careers and we both moved to Los Angeles at the same time and our boyfriends at the time had followed us out and got, we got married and, you know, we had so many similarities in our but you know her as an executive, me working as the president's right hand.
You know, I had a level of, of insight that she didn't necessarily have. Right. And so I was able to give her advice or mentor her on whether she should do this thing. And peer to peer is often that way. Like someone is asking for advice or, you know, but we go back and forth. So it could be like, mentee, mentee or mentor.
Mentor, you know? Yeah. It's not necessarily like, you know, I would ask them for their advice for my career as well, so. I mean, that's just peer to peer kind of things at all levels. But then as you raise, you know, I always was the kind of person that no matter where I was, so for instance, if I was in this role, I would talk to our interns.
I would talk to everyone to give them advice about just how you show up in the office, all of that, those things to kind of make them stronger in their space. And then as I grew as an executive you know, I happen to be like the kind of person who's really observant mm-hmm.
Of everything that goes around, I notice like how people succeed, how people fail. And I'm often able to give that advice to people coming up and just have been in the business for a long time. And even though it's changed the core of like the business is still pretty much the same. Right.
And so, so I think, as you grow and you learn, you are able to mentor different levels. There are people who are, who were even, you know, in, in bigger or higher level roles than I was that I was able to mentor them too, because I knew them well enough and I would say, you're spiraling.
Don't do that. Like, you know, like that kind of thing. Right. So whether you call it advice or not, it's still mentorship. It's still is someone who can give you advice on your career, which is in definition pretty much what a mentor is.
Camille: Right. Yes. No, that's helpful. I think it's good to not have it be so boxed into this one thing.
Mm-hmm. And realize that. For folks who maybe feel like they don't have mentorship, like maybe it just looks a little differently than you expected.
Karen: Mm-hmm. And also to be open to accepting that it is different, it's not always so defined. And that if you bring in people who you trust and who you admire, you can often get a lot of information and learn from them as well.
Camille: Mm-hmm. In What ways do you think that being a mentor has influenced your career?
Karen: Yeah, I mean, I think that in my, uh, adult children have helped me stay i, I wanna say, like, to be aware of the ways that people who are starting their careers or at different levels feel about stuff Now it's different.
It was different when I was starting my career, so to say to them, "this is how you should do it, because this is the advice I was given, this is how I did it," is not relevant necessarily today. Mm-hmm. So, so I think being a mentor has helped keep me kind of in tune. With with like what's going on at all different levels and all different aspects of the industry, or even not just our industry, but with a generation that's well behind me.
And I can, I couldn't necessarily. Give advice for people that I took mm-hmm. When I was growing up. 'cause it's different, right? Like the world is a different place than when I was coming up, you know, in it so to say to someone you need to do this. Like, you need to wear a suit every day in the office.
That's crap. That's not true because that's not what this is now. Right? I don't wear suits every day anyway.
Karen: But like, I'm just saying if it were to know the difference of what's, what the pulse is, it keeps my finger on the pulse and makes me understand like what's happening. And I think also, you know, my work with writers, that's it, it's helpful to stay relevant to a different generation as well.
Camille: Yeah. And I think that's, to me what I'm hearing is just that you're a good mentor that you like,
Karen: I hope so
Camille: yeah, pay attention to those things and. And you're not just there to be like, let me fix your life. Yeah. It's like, I am trying to do what's best for you. Mm-hmm. And give you that advice
Karen: Or help you see what's best for you.
Yeah.
Karen: I mean, I think that's kind of how I coach as well. Like any coach is not supposed to dictate what you're, what you should do or tell you how you, I mean. As much as it, it should be about helping you. It's kind of like a therapist in many ways. Yes. You know? Um, but it is not for me to give you the answers, but just to give you the insight to figure out, because ultimately you need to do what you are comfortable with, how you go home at night, how you feel good about it.
That's what needs to be done as opposed to me dictating to someone else what they should or should not do.
Camille: Yeah. And since you brought up coaching mm-hmm. I took. An online course like through work mm-hmm. Of coaching. And really you're learning to just ask good questions. Mm-hmm. And let whoever you're coaching kind of come up with their best answer.
Mm-hmm. And so that was really interesting for me because it wasn't what I imagined that it would be. Yeah. Um, especially when I think about like a sports coach. They're not really like do what you feel. It's like, learn these plays that I told you. Right. And like execute it how I'm telling you.
Right. So I think that kind of threw me off. Usually I would come in with an idea of what the person should do and I would just try to keep it to myself and ask the questions.
Mm-hmm. And then they would almost a hundred percent of the time come up with a better solution than what I thought they should do. Mm-hmm. And obviously it's also better 'cause it works better for them. But I was like, I never would've thought of that. And that's so good. So it because you've actually been a professional coach, like this was just a little online course for me.
D is that kind of how mentorship goes for you and, and sponsorship too, where it's like,
Karen: I would say it's a little different. Okay. Like I coach a little different than I would mentor. Like if I know someone and I have a relationship when I'm mentoring them and I've got to know them, I would say don't do that.
Like don't, I would absolutely say no, no, no, no. That's probably not a good idea to do. And it's interesting because I'm working with a company right now and I'm coaching. The assistant and also the president of the company. Mm. And so the assistant, the way I coach the two of them is way different because the president is a leader.
She's a badass. She's been there, she's in that role for a reason. The assistant is just kind of starting out in this industry. So like with her, I give her more assignments, if you will. Mm. Like I say, tell me about what your goals are. Tell me about like what you, what skills you think you need to be developed.
Like, and I don't say to them, you need to have the skill. You need to have that skill. Instead, I say to them like, what do you want? Like, it, a coach is supposed to listen and coach them, not dictate to them. Mm-hmm.
But for, like, so for the leader it's a completely different skillset. You know, she, she doesn't need to say where she wants to be and she's a president of a, you know, a production company. Right. So for her it's more about her leadership. Like how do you feel, you know how, like for instance, I asked her to do, and I asked a lot of my clients to do this a me memo, and in the me memo I asked them to write a memo about how you best how it is to work for you. Like what are the things, and I've done this when I, as an executive, when I interview people, sometimes I ask them like, how can I best manage you? Mm. Like, and so, because what I want for my team to do is succeed. I want everybody to succeed, and I don't want to manage people in a way that they're not gonna be their most productive, right?
So they don't respond to it. They don't respond. So for the president, it's talking to her and then saying like, like how do you, how does your team best want it to be managed? But also how do they best support you? Like what are the things that your team needs to do to help? Support you to make you all succeed.
And so it's kind of listening it and it's different coaching for different parts of their career. And I would say mentorship is the same thing. Like I, I, you know, I talk to people who are just starting in the industry and then I talk to people who are like, wealth, you know, established.
Established. Yeah. And and you know, the conversations are different just accordingly.
Camille: Mm-hmm. Thank you.
Karen: Yeah.
Camille: In what ways do you think that your personal identity has influenced the way that you mentor other folks?
Karen: Uh, what I've learned about myself and I and I think I've always knew, knew this, is that, first of all, I'm a nurturer.
I don't know if people talk about like there are astrology signs or anything like that, but I, I don't. Live my life differently because of it, but I do believe like some of it's influenced by it. Yeah, totally. Because it's so true, right? So my sign is cancer and I'm a nurturer. Like I, you know, before I was a mother, I was a nurturer, you know, and and helping.
Creative talent recognize their dreams and, and bringing them in and helping them, you know, see their dreams is, is a, is a very nurturing kind of position. So I think that,
Camille: yeah. 'cause and they're in a very vulnerable spot.
Karen: It's very vulnerable. Right. So understanding that vulnerability and being able to get them past that mm-hmm.
To get them past their doubts is very much, it's more, it's more than just helping them become better writers. Mm-hmm. It's making them know that they're ready to be in this industry. Right. And that part of it is coaching for sure. It's mentoring, it's psychology, kind of, it's all of that. So, because I am that person who is nurturing and you know, very, you.
I'm a mom, you know, like that's how I'm also very empathetic. Like so particularly what's going on in this world now, it's hard for me, like I have to limit the time that I'm watching the news. I have to scroll through certain things on my social media very quickly so it doesn't sit with me. 'cause it stays with me.
And so I think that the empathy that I have. As a human being helps me be more connected to the people that I work with or the people that I'm coaching or mentoring. I am very much like in, can put myself in their shoes and understand what they're going through.
I also have, like my background, I didn't grow up with a silver spoon on my mouth. I am from a single mom. We grew up poor in New Jersey, and you know, everything I got, I worked really hard to have. And so I don't, and I think that part of it is really, um, really makes me really makes me very kind of, uh, understanding at all levels of, and, but you know, that said, I also. Sit with CEOs mm-hmm.
And work with them. And those who have silver spoons that I'm com I often say I'm as comfortable in a boardroom as I am in a writer's room. Mm. And that's true because I am very um, I can, I am comfortable in wherever I sit. So I think that all of those things really help me, I hope, anyway helps help me become really good at the things that I do.
And, and most importantly, like I wanna see people succeed. So as a leader on a team, like when I'm in a company and I'm leading a team, I wanna see them succeed. I give them space. I don't need to have the seat at the conference room. You know, I let my team speak about it because I don't need the face time, my team does.
And so I'm very much aware and that it's that awareness. I think, I hope anyway, that helps me be really successful at the stuff that I'm doing or good at it, you know?
Camille: Yeah, totally.
Yeah. And I think, I think the empathy thing is huge especially when you're working at all these different levels. Mm-hmm.
And you really have to meet people where they're at. Mm-hmm. And the other thing that I'm kind of hearing is that you have like a self-assuredness and like confidence in yourself that you're like, yeah, I actually don't need to be the one speaking because I deserve to be here, and so I'm letting my team Yeah.
You know, go. So I think. That might be part of it too.
Karen: Yeah. I mean, and it's also not to let your title become who you are. I always said that, my p the chair has the power. I don't have the power. And that as soon as my butt's not in that chair, whoever else's is will then have the power of that chair.
Right. So recognizing and staying humble, I do have a little bit of, you know, um, I do have a little bit of problem with the word humble though, because especially as a black woman in this industry, I think that we are taught to be humble. We're, you know, not, don't talk up too much, don't do whatever, but there is a little bit where humility gets in your way.
Mm-hmm. Like, so I have spent a lot of my career not talking about like, quietly saying I started their career, you know, right. Where I, you know. Where I'm like, I've done a lot. Yeah. I have had a huge impact in this industry. I have had, you know, the work I've done is very transferable to a lot of different industries, and I think that we, particularly as women or women of color, need to stop being so humble and to really start blowing our own horns and really recognizing the work we've done and the accomplishments we've had.
Understanding that it's not being, you know, it's not bragging or anything. It's, I'm just being truthful about it. Like, this is, you look at my record, it's there. Right? So, so I think that's part of, while I say the humility in me doesn't need to have center stage all the time, particularly when it means lifting up my team.
But also. I also want to make sure that the people around me know, or if, if I'm in an organization we'll put out a newsletter or whatever. So you know, the work that we are doing as a team and we can be proud of it.
Camille: Speaking of your impact mm-hmm. Amy Aniobi was.
Camille: Is one of the many people that you've mentored who've continued to have a successful career and she's known for the idea of networking across.
Which in some cases, Issa Rae is kind of known for that. And she's like, no, no, no, Amy said that. Mm-hmm. But, um, which meaning like building connections with the folks who, your peers, the folks who are at your level, and then kind of, working with them and then as you go, like you're all kind of rising and using that for, to benefit everyone really.
And so do you have any resources or recommendations that you suggest for folks who are looking to network across.
Karen: Sure. But I wanna talk about Amy for a second. Yes, please. And she was the person that I referred to earlier where I was like, oh
Camille: yes, our Easter egg.
Karen: Yeah. Well, it was, it's, it's Amy, like I knew I met Issa through Amy because Amy was in a UCLA.
Writing program that NBC, when I was at NBC, we helped sponsor, so she was a writer there that I started to mentor during that program. And she got into the Warner Brothers writing program before I was at Warner Brothers. While I was still at NBC. And one of our NBC shows wanted to hire her. Um, the showrunner knew her from something and wanted to hire, and then we had a full 22 episode order of that show. And I said to the person who was running the Warner Brothers workshop.
You need to let Amy out of her workshop so she can go be on this show. And he was like, we're not letting her out. They signed a contract. And I was like, but you don't pay. You don't pay them. They're signing a contract, but you like, what is that? That's not like, what is that? And he was like, we're not letting her out.
And I was like, but you have to. This is a full 22 episodes. This is gonna start her career. He's like, it's not our show. So my sponsoring of Amy made me say that's, I'm from Jersey, so I probably said it with a lot more color than I am saying it now, but I'm just like, that's crazy. You have to let her out.
And he was like, if this is your one favor, go ahead and ask for it, because I'll let her out if that's your one favor, but don't ask me ever again. And I was like, fine. It's my one favor. Let her out. Wow. And so she got on the, on the show and she's not stopped writing since. Yeah. And so I think, you know, that's an.
That is an example of sponsorship versus mentorship because I was like, sure, here's my chip. It's the favor. I believe in her, I'm putting my, my everything on the line for that. And it worked out. So now going to talking about across level I mean, I think we talked about it a little earlier. Mm-hmm.
When I said there are, there, there are friends who are my peers now and we talk about like. This is happening to me with my contract. And I think that's an important thing. Like when you get to a point where you're working with contracts, we are so programmed to not talk about our salaries. Right. To not talk about our deals, to not talk about a lot of that stuff.
And I think that some way is detrimental to us. Mm-hmm. Because you know, I learned when I was at NBC that I was making a hundred thousand dollars less than a white guy who was a vice president. I was a senior vice president at the head of my department. He was a vice president within another department, and he was making a hundred thousand dollars more than me.
I didn't know that until he was leaving. Mm-hmm. And so I think that if you across your peers say, okay, we're in this. How much are you making? How much, whatever. Like, like that's helpful and I think we are so programmed to not talk about that stuff that it can work against us. I don't know if people feel comfortable about it or not, but that, and that's their choice and their right.
But I think especially when you talk about peer-to-peer, it's like, Hey, this is happening to me. Have you been in this situation? And if you're at the same level, at the same time. So everything that's happening is relevant. Yeah. The context, because the, yes, it's the same, then it's really helpful to have those peer mentorships or relationships.
Mm-hmm. Because that is, is, it will be really, really helpful as you make decisions in, you know, informing your next moves.
Camille: Yeah. And that's a really great example too of the pay 'cause I think it gets awkward, it gets uncomfortable and it's on both sides of it, I think, where knowing when to ask and when it's like, how much do I share and in what way?
And is this gonna blow back on me? So I think it's. It's a vulnerable place to be in, but I think that's a really good example of how to,
Karen: and now, you know, there are certain states like New York and California that has pay transparency, so it's out there anyway. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, you can look up this role and see what, you know, any role that is advertised is supposed to tell you what the pay is.
Mm-hmm. It's, it's, you know, there are pay transparency and that is because there was such discrepancy in pay. Um, you know, and so that's why states like California and New York now have pay transparencies.
Camille: Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much.
Karen: Of course.
Camille: And then. Before I let you go, okay.
Camille: The question I'm asking everyone at the end of their episode this season is, if you were currently in kindergarten, what would you bring in for show and tell?
Karen: I give, I, you know, I thought about this a little bit and I would be a badass kindergartner because I would show my recent tattoo, my first tattoo I've been talking about. And the why it's significant is because. I've talked about getting a tattoo for decades, and I'm at a point in my life, in my career where I'm like, why are we holding back and waiting for things?
And so I didn't even tell anybody in my family I was doing it. I just, like, the day after my birthday, I went out and I was like, I had some errands to run, and I came back with a bandaid on my arm and they're like, what happened to you? And I was like, I got a tattoo. And they're like, no, you didn't. I was like, yeah, I did.
You know? And they were like, why didn't you bring us? And, you know, so we could like, talk you through it. It's like, because it's for me. Mm-hmm. And it's something that's really important to me. So the tattoo I know it's a podcast and you can't see, I don't if you take picture of it or whatever, but it's, it's a cross kind of, but the horizontal is a wave.
Yeah. The wave is kind of like life's ups and downs, and there's a moon above the wave. On the right side of the upper right side. Um, the moon is my astrological sign, but it's also how nature affects the waves and life's ups and downs, and so you just kind of have the roll with it. Um, below that is a mustard seed because we should have the faith of a mustard seed.
Uh, the bottom left is a heart because I truly believe that if we treat each other with love, if we are love filled instead of hate filled, this world would be a much better place. And then on the upper left is a dash, and the dash represents life. When you die, people look at your birth date, dash, your death date.
Mm, the death, the dash is what's important. It's how you live your life and that is what's most important. Not your birth date, not your death date, but the dash in between. That's what I would bring in for show and tell.
Camille: Oh my. That's beautiful.
Karen: Thank you
Camille: both. The actual image of the tattoo and the meaning behind it, that's really amazing.
Yeah. I'm glad you got it.
Karen: Thank you. I mean, I drew it out and I looked at it for like a month and I was just like, this is gonna be on my body for the rest of my life. And now when I show people I'm like. It's real. So if you hate it, you need to keep it to yourself because it's not gonna,
Camille: it's not going anywhere.
Karen: It's not going anywhere. So yeah, but I look at it and love it and I'm so happy I did it.
Camille: Good. I love that. Thank you so much for coming here and sharing so much of your experience and it's career and advice and just perspective. I think it's really important and helpful.
Karen: Thank you. I hope, I hope people get a little bit something from it and, uh, go out there and find those people who are going to stand with you besides you, behind you and help you out.
Camille: Yeah. Thank you.
Karen: Thank you.
Camille: Thanks for listening to my conversation with Karen. If you want to keep up with her, you can find her social media accounts in the show notes.
Please subscribe to the show anywhere you get your podcasts and leave a review to let me know what you think. You can also get updates on guests, episode releases, and more by following the show on Instagram @HoldtheDoorPod.
I'll be back next week with the next installment of our rest series exploring how to know when or when not to monetize your hobbies. See you then.
