Becoming a People Manager with Olivia Gastaldo

On this episode of Hold the Door, Olivia Gastaldo joins the pod to discuss becoming a people manager. They share how they developed their management skills and philosophy, as well as some tips for new managers.

You can stay connected with Olivia via their website, LinkedIn, and Instagram @ogastaldo.

Make sure to subscribe to Hold the Door on your favorite listening platform. You can also get updates on guests, episode releases, and more by following the show on Instagram @holdthedoorpod.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Camille: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the host and guests alone.

Olivia: It's a capitalistic machine that's supposed to make money at the end of the day. Sometimes art and money align. Sometimes they don't.

Camille: If I got this, I'd be like, this is out of my job scope. I am not a therapist.

Olivia: Try your best to be a cohesive member of the team. Try your best. Don't be talking shit cause the audio guy is always listening.

Camille: Hello, welcome back to Hold the Door. I'm your host, Camille Wilson. This week, Olivia Gastaldo joins to discuss becoming a people manager. We'll learn how they developed their management skills and philosophy, as well as hear some tips and tricks to developing your own.

Olivia Margarita Gastaldo, Cofounder and Head of Production at Local News, is an animated storyteller, budding botanist, film nerd, and lover of ambient jazz. They work as a director, producer, and cinematographer in the gaming, narrative, commercial, and experiential fields.

Olivia is known for talking with their hands and crafting unique fan experiences IRL and online. As a queer person, Olivia prioritizes collaborating with LGBTQ+ and diverse creatives to generate tangible change in the entertainment industry.

Olivia's company, Local News, provides job opportunities, mentorship, and community workshops in order to uplift those around us. Olivia has worked in entertainment for the past decade and has a resume including Tiffany & Co., Capitol Records, Chipotle, Netflix, Lexus, and more. Their films have premiered at Outfest and festivals around the globe.

You can most likely catch Olivia on set or wandering about the California wilderness. Hope you enjoy our conversation.

Camille: Welcome Olivia, aka Liv. Thank you for joining the podcast.

Olivia: Of course. Thanks for having me.

Camille: Yes. We are here to talk about becoming a people manager. And I'm using that term just to clarify, you could have the title “Manager,” but not actually have to manage any people (totally), so just so it's clear like you're leading people. (Yes)

And so, managing people is definitely not for everybody (Mm hmm) either because of desire or because of skill or whatever, but everyone is managed by someone at some point, and your manager can definitely, like, make or break your experience in a certain role. But I want to talk about this specifically because as important as that role is, in a lot of workplaces, there really isn't a lot of training to get you into that place to develop strong leaders. And so for a lot of folks, it's like luck of the draw, what kind of manager you get. So I'm excited to talk to you about how you're navigating that space, especially being part of, a community, a marginalized community where you might not have seen a lot of people with your same background do this before you have to do it. (Totally.)

But let's start with your logline. So we heard your bio and now we'll hear your personal logline, to get to know you a little bit more outside of your career. 

Olivia: Oh god. Honestly, I don't think I can fit myself into like a one sentence format. You might have to just listen to the episode.

Camille: And that's perfect. Let's start first with how you got your start in the industry, and was entertainment always the plan? 

[00:03:31] Olivia: Um, entertainment was not always the plan. Uh, so I very much so grew up in a family where my dad was a photojournalist, uh, so he worked for the San Diego Union Tribune, that's where I grew up. My mom also worked for the San Diego Union Tribune, they met there and she was a graphic designer. So I was very lucky to grow up with two parents that were working artists. My dad would argue with me, um, because he always says he's a journalist, not an artist, which I think is hilarious, um, very New Yorker statement.

But I really grew up with two parents who were doing it as their careers, right? And the unfortunate part about the arts and like, especially if you're living in a market like San Diego or another city that's a little bit smaller than like LA or New York, um, you're probably not making a lot of money.

You're probably just making it by and that was really where my parents were at and so they uh very much so I think recognized early on that I had creative skills kind of naturally. Um, but they also recognized that I was really good at negotiating and public speaking and um, kind of just general leadership skills was something that they had always kind of recognized.

And so they wanted me to be a doctor. They wanted me to be a lawyer. They wanted me to be something that they thought would actually make money. Um, they did not want me to go into the arts. And they were very vocal about that. But at the same time, they were inherently like both artists. So I grew up in an artistic home.

Like I grew up, you know, um, and so I actually all through high school was like, I'm going to be a professional volleyball player. (Oh) Like that was my, that was my delusion at that time. Um, all-

Camille: And they were like yay or nay?

Olivia: They were all in, like, they really, I swear to God, like they really thought, especially my dad. My dad was not an athlete growing up.

He, like, ran cross country and that was kind of it. He was like true New York kid, you know, playing guitar on the sidewalk type deal. Um, so he was like, “Oh wow.” Like he always wanted a son, I imagine. And he was very excited to, like, go to volleyball tournaments and kind of live this, like, volleyball dad life, uh, if you will.

So I had always done sports from a young age. So I really thought sports was like that, that was where I was going to go. Like that was where I was going to find my, my happiness. Um, I loved the discipline of it. I was always really into teamwork and building teams.

Like I was never the best player on the team. I was always maybe like the fourth best player, right? So my job was really to bring the energy. And my coaches knew that. My coaches really, I think that that was a big reason why I advanced so quickly, um, was not because I was the best player. But I was the person who was going to make you feel like the best player. And that was always really important to me.

And something that I recognized early on with my family and kind of my friend group was that I was always the person that people relied on. I was always the person If you were in an emergency, if you were having a bad day, whatever it was, you would call me and I would somehow fix the thing that was wrong. Um, and so when I got kind of into senior year and I was then, you know, volleyball was not an option anymore, right? And so when I got into this kind of questionable time in my life where I was like, “it's senior year, what do I do?” Um, I started to think about movies and initially I was like, “Oh, I want to be an actor.”

And like, I was so determined, um, because I really fell in love, like, early on with stories that were, you know, femme focused or like, you know, these kind of women heroes. My very first film that I kind of became obsessed with was Princess Mononoke. That was, like, to this day, that is still my favorite movie, um, and the movie that, like, changed my life.

Um, it was the first time I had seen a hero that was a woman that didn't give a shit about anybody else's opinions. She was driven. She was focused. She, uh, was not a love interest. Like the, the actual like dynamic between her and the main male character in the film is really more of a friendship. There's not really anything, like, explicitly romantic between them. And I loved that. I was like, “Oh my God, like, you mean you can, you can be the boss and like actually take on, you know, uh, the big bad wolf,” so to speak. So that really shifted my kind of understanding of filmmaking.

And, and, you know, I wasn't, my parents were artists, but like, they weren't the type of artists that were exposing me to like, what I would say is like highbrow art. I grew up in San Diego. It was surfing. It was skating. (Yeah, Endless Summer.) It was smoking weed. Exactly. Like that was like, you know, the vibe. Um, and a lot of people love that.

I basically made the decision, after all that I went through in high school, I was like, I'm gonna go and do something a little crazy. I'm gonna do something that nobody expects me to do. Um, and I'm gonna move to San Francisco. And I'm gonna go to art school. And I'm gonna go to the weirdest fucking art school that I can possibly find.

Um, and I did.

So, when I went to San Francisco, it was like the first time I was like, no, this is for me. I'm gonna make this decision for myself. Um, and man, I got the fucking wind knocked out of me, it was like, it was just like a flood of exposure to so many different things, whether it be queer history, whether it be the political history of San Francisco and other cities, and learning about race and race relations. I feel, like, in, for the first time in my life, in an honest way, because I think, you know, all the bullshit, like you're taught in school.

And like, even my parents, like there were a lot of things. I have a brown dad, but I have a white mom and I'm a white kid. Like I look white to the, you know, to everybody. And so I was taught things, but without it being explicitly said, you're being taught this to protect yourself. You know what I mean?

Um, so yeah, I think that San Francisco is that moment for me where I was like, okay, I'm gonna move, I'm gonna expose myself to like this world that I've always wanted to be a part of but don't understand and I did it. And it was crazy. And it was terrifying. But it was also one of like the most, um, it was like one of the most chaotic and yet honest times in my life. Because of the, for the first time I was living for myself.

 Um, I ended up actually meeting friends at SFAI, um, which sadly does not exist anymore, which is tragic. Um, it died during COVID as many things did. But I met Quinn Martin, who's still, you know, a long time collaborator, long time friend, long time partner of mine.

So that was really like the place where I met so many people that, like, changed my life.

Camille: Yeah, and kind of laid the foundation for your (Oh my God, yeah) career and life now. 

Olivia: Oh, a hundred percent. Basically, I met Quinn. Quinn introduced me to gaming, which was a world that, like, I had dabbled in gaming as a kid. I was nerdy, but it wasn't, it wasn't cool to be nerdy when I was in high school. It was something you had to hide about yourself. It was something that you were, like, ashamed about, and especially me.

So when I was kind of looking for a job, I was 19, I was broke as hell. You know, financially independent. I'm trying to make it work somehow. Um, Quinn was working at Riot Games. Uh, Riot Games makes League of Legends, they make Valorant. Biggest, the, arguably the biggest developer, um, and biggest gaming company in the world or like, you know, amongst the big, big three.

Um, and I was like, eh, gaming. Like I like cozy games. I like story games. The games that they were making I was not really into. Um, but I kind of took a chance and I started just hanging out there, and I started just assistant camera operating and, um, just being like basically an assistant. That was kind of my first job.

And people like, in gaming, when I tell them that, they're like, oh, your first job was at Riot Games? Like, that's crazy. Like, that's just like unheard of. People work their entire careers to work at Riot.

So I was incredibly fortunate to get that leg up and I really give a lot of that credit to Quinn, like, of course, I had my own resume, I had my own reel. I had the work to meet the opportunity And when the opportunity presented itself, it just you know, it flowed so very appreciative again.

Camille: Um, but quickly to rewind because I think when people think of entertainment (Yeah) they're not always including gaming. 

Olivia: So a hundred percent. There's a massive mass- Oh my God. I haven't. I can talk to you about that for, like, hours within itself.

Camille: Um, so what, like when you said you're a camera operator, (Yeah) like kind of what's the breakdown or what’s happening? 

Olivia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, what does that mean? Yeah. No. Um, so when I say camera operator, when I say assistant camera, when I say, you know, first AC, these are all jobs that are basically when you're talking about riot games and you're talking about the different kinds of departments that are there, Riot Games specifically has a broadcast department and then they have a department called features and features is essentially all of the Ancillary content that you see that is about players.

It's about the game. It's about matches It like brings you into the 

Camille: world. 

Olivia: It brings you into the world. It's the story. Exactly. It's the storytelling and so, cause I really wanted to be a cinematographer who was doing Narrative films, you know what I mean? I wanted to do documentaries. so I was like, okay It's storytelling like let me get to the features department do that And I learned so much not only about camera department because you know, we're working with different cameras You know, I'm breaking things down setting things up cleaning things.

Um, but what was unique about what I was doing was that me and my chatty self, I was talking to everybody outside of camera. Like I was, you know, and this is, it comes with a little bit of like, Aw man, there's a reason for that because I was the only woman, you know In the camera department and that was true That was true most of my career, honestly.

Um, I was the only woman, uh, which like feels weird to say, because like I identify currently and like in my adult life as like non binary.

Um, but I was the only femme presenting person, you know, um, on the camera team. In a lot of my career, that was, especially early career, um, that was the case, unfortunately. And, it was, uh, I won't get into too much, but it was awful. Like, it was, it was awful. Um, I was constantly being belittled. I was constantly being told I could, didn't have the skillset to do what I knew I could do, you know what I mean?

Um, literally getting cameras taken out of my hands, people telling me not to carry shit, you know? Oh my gosh. Awful stuff. 

Camille: Yeah, 

Olivia: um, like I didn't even get the worst of it. Um, so it was rough. And so I really, I, I, I, um, I looked for connection in other places. I looked for connection with the makeup artists. I looked for connection with People that were in the crowd that were like massive fans I looked for connection With some of the producers because there were a few women producers that weren't necessarily like the big dog producers at the time But they were you know doing like some lower level producing so I became very close with them

um, but basically like I made a, I made a concerted effort to reach out to people that were not in my team because I very quickly realized that the way I was getting treated on that team as the only woman, I was getting to the point where they were preventing me from seeing out the window, so to speak.

And so I made friends with people that could, you know, give me a step up, give me a little bit of like a reach to see that window, to see what was possible.

And basically, I went from assistant camera operator to a camera operator and then to DP. And then when I was DPing stuff and I was getting a little bit more stuff on my reel, and then I started producing.

And that was really where a lot of things in my life shifted, because I had one team, so it's kind of like the NBA with, um, with Riot Games. Riot Games is like the NBA, and then there's all these teams and orgs that own teams within the franchise, um, and they kind of compete, you know, they have their own brands, etc.

It's really interesting. But these teams, they're, they're, Part talent agency, because they rep players and they rep content creators. They're part apparel brand.

A lot of them have, you know, merch and clothing and plushies and whatnot. Um, they're also like a professional sports team. You know, they're actually have players, they have coaches, like a whole staff that are training these folks to win the championship.

Um, and so I got approached and, and, and talked to and, and actually Quinn helped out with this a lot as well. Because he was just a little bit more deeply steeped into the scene. Um, he set me up with a team called team liquid and team liquid kind of immediately the folks there, they recognize like, Hey, this person has talent as a cinematographer, but they also have a lot of talent in team leadership, um, and storytelling.

So. they actually hired me as like a hybrid, uh, cinematographer producer, which at the time was becoming like a much, much more popular position that was commercially available. Um, because it fit the scope of work that we were doing, right? Like you were embedding yourself with these teams, doing team documentaries, doing interviews, doing commercial branded commercials, if there were sponsors that the teams had, et cetera.

 And, um, I learned really quickly that the skills I thought inherently were like my own were useful, but they weren't sharp. They weren't Um, and so I made a lot of mistakes. Um, and also I was like, They promoted me in six months to senior producer, which was very funny to me because like I was doing the work of a senior producer, but I didn't have the skillset necessarily. Like I was very good at winging it.

Kind of back to the idea of like being a problem solver That was how I grew up. Like I was constantly solving problems for everybody else.

And I think that was like maybe the first big career lesson I learned where I was like, even if I didn't know how to do something, as long as I had the attitude of. And the attitude and the approach of, I'm gonna be a go getter, I'm gonna figure this out.

And any problem can be solved. And that was like, like brain blast. Like I was so kind of obsessed with this idea of like, I can be that guy.

Like I can be that guy who above all, you know, that's going to get, you know, it's going to, it's going to get done. Um, and that was really like what that mentality and that kind of approach was how I very quickly, I think went up against people's expectations because when people expect you to not be great, or they expect you to be mediocre, You solve problems for them that like they themselves couldn't even solve then you start to prove yourself Extremely useful

Camille: Well, actually, okay Because first of all, did you ever think you'd be a people manager? What's that on your radar at all? Because yes Part of it is you obviously had natural like leadership tendency Yes, you understand how to work with the team and you are able to see like, Strengths and weaknesses folks and like highlight them.

Yeah, but also You're focused on your own career. So you're having in like I'm learning these skills. I'm doing these things. Yeah, and I think One of the ways that we do sometimes end up with not the greatest leaders Is because the way a lot of the systems work It's like if you're good at the tactical thing, you get promoted up very out of doing the thing that you're good at.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So what like basically was being a people manager even on your radar and then um, 

Olivia: Yeah, um, being a people manager was very much on my radar because I had such bad bosses. Yeah.

Camille: Did you have any formal training at all or anything you were kind of picking up? Yeah, or was it just like I see what not to do Yeah I see where I can bring in my strengths and like maybe adjust a little bit here or was it like oh I went To this class.

Olivia: No, no. No, it was very much um Most of my life, the best lessons I've learned are from watching people around me fail. And I know that sounds really harsh, um, but it's something I've talked a lot with my parents about. Um, financially, they had a really hard time. They made a lot of mistakes. And through those mistakes, I learned, Hey, this is how you get a good credit score.

This is how you make investments. This is how you, you know, a lot of, it's funny. I had a professor in college who said, if you watch two movies a week that are good, watch one that's bad. Because you can't, there's a different type of learning that happens when we watch things fail. And I think when, especially me, as someone who's a problem solving person, that's very like, That's very tied to my identity.

When it was in my actual career as an adult, watching managers who are managing me fail, um, often, because you have to also keep in mind, a lot of these managers are like my age or two years older than me, and the only reason they're there is because they were there when the org started, or they were there when the team first established, or they were there just because they're a few years older, you know what I mean?

There's not real, like, they're not there. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. They are not there. They're there because they have put the time in and there's a lot of managers across the board that are there because they put the time in. They're not there because their skillset is a good match for the job. And I very quickly observed that and learned that where I was like, okay, I can use this to my advantage.

This person who's managing me, a lot of things are going wrong. A lot of things. Um, and so I very quickly learned like, okay. That didn't work for them. This is what I'm going to try. You know what I mean? And I found a lot of success with that because I was constantly surrounded by, I'm sorry, but mediocre men, mediocre men that were very good At convincing the room that they were bringing something to the table when they weren't.

So I have a long time editor, collaborator, Natalie Hill. Fantastic human being. Adore her. One of my best friends. Um, And there was a year, a few years back, where we had been joking, you know, we were chatting, whatever.

And it was like, around January, and we were like, Man, we're gonna go into this year with white man confidence. Like, we are going to go into this year with the confidence that like, No rules apply, you know what I mean? Like, Cause it's true, like, these men, particularly white men, are, um, astonishingly mediocre.

And it's like really, they look the part, but they look the part. They talk, you know, they talk the talk. They look, and I started to kind of go, Hmm, okay. If I'm going to beat the boys club, I have to kind of. Be in the boys club a little bit. Like I, at this, especially at this time, a little bit like if you can't beat 'em, join 'em a little bit.

A little bit. And I, I, that that infiltrate. Infiltrate, yeah. I would say it's not so much join as it is, like, um, observe and then hatch a plan to like destruct. There you go. But you know, especially I think me, like I'm, I'm the type of person where I. I have the privilege of moving through a lot of spaces, uh, and also I know how to move through a lot of spaces.

Like I grew up in a very Diverse way where I saw people that were very wealthy, people that were not very wealthy. Um, I grew up culturally with like Korean stepmom, Mexican stepdad, you know, Irish, like I grew up with a lot of different things. So I feel very comfortable in a lot of different spaces. And one thing that I'm very comfortable with is my masculinity.

And I noticed that this was a really big tool for me. And it's tough because I don't want to like tell people like, oh yeah, just be, act like a dude and like, you know, it'll be easier. is I don't want people to have to act like a dude for it to be easier. I think that's fucked up. Um, but inherently I was already a more masculine person.

And so I did use that to my advantage where I was like, well, the patriarchy is already here, babe. It's already, it's already in full swing. So like, why not? Kind of, um, rig it a little bit, you know what I mean? And so I started dressing more masculine. I started talking more masculine. I started to joke with the boys and like, you know, very playful ways, not flirtatious, very big difference, not flirtatious.

And that I noticed like an immediate difference in how I got treated. I stopped wearing leggings on set. This was like, you know, leggings were a big thing, right? Like a few years back, stopped wearing leggings on set, started wearing slacks. Um, you know, I'm a big titty girl, started covering up the titties.

You know what I mean? Like it, it, and it did. The fucked up part of it is it worked. 

Camille: Yeah. 

Olivia: Is that I did get more respect. 

Camille: And how did that make you feel? Were you like Yay, my plan is working, or were you like, this sucks, I have to change, or were you like, I'm just leaning into another part of my identity, it is what it is.

Olivia: All three. All three. All three at once. It was an incredibly, and still is, something I deal with a lot, um, it sucks. Because I don't want, again, I do not want women, or feminine people, to have to act masculine. To get ahead. Like that's ridiculous. We should just be able to show up as ourselves and that be enough because it isn't that ultimately it is enough.

Like these a lot of times, actually more than more than enough. Oh my God, more than enough, like above and beyond. And so that's why I think there's a really important, um, there's a really important thing to remember as anyone going through their career is that the system in which you work is not the system which defines you.

Right? You have to keep some semblance of yourself. Um, this is a very hot, hot take. I'm about to go into a hot take here. Um, as a manager, this is more like present tense. So I'm kind of skipping ahead a little bit. Sorry. Um, present tense. Something that I noticed very, very quickly when I became a director level employee, if you will, was that I had people on my team who, because of my resume and because of my Um, because of my resume and because of my position in gaming, because at this point I had been doing it for 10 years, I've done a lot of campaigns that have, you know, become iconic in the gaming world.

A lot of people know my work. I'm also one of the only women, so like, you know, you get known pretty quickly. Um, But because of that, I think they wanted to work like 2000 times harder and I had to kind of stop them and be like, Hey, you need to give 80 percent to this job and 20 percent to yourself. Don't ever give somebody a hundred percent.

Truly. And like, that was something that took me years to learn because I was like in a chronic cycle of burnout and have, I would literally work a salary job for like a year and a half, two years, and then go freelance because I was so burnt out. And then, but the greatest thing was that I'd go freelance and then I would get a better job.

So that was also that I'll go into that a little bit. Cause that is a bit of a secret sauce that I don't think people talk about enough. Um, But I think it's really, really critical for everybody to remember. And this is not just like, you know, this is like, like romantic relationships. This was your friends.

This was your life. Like don't ever give a hundred percent of yourself to something except yourself. Like you have to reserve. Your own sense of self and you have to reserve your own energy Because I can't tell you how many years my life went by Where i'm like, what the fuck did I do that year? And then i'll look back at my portfolio and i'm like, oh, okay.

Well, that's what I did But then i'm like, but what was I actually doing, you know? I'm, like I don't want my portfolio to be the only thing I have of memories from that year.

Camille: And I think that's great advice, but I'm also curious how you balance giving that advice and potentially reinforcing that it always with your team because Like you're there in a work capacity.

So I feel like You probably have some boundaries where there's only so much you want to go into like you're not like hey You need to spend more time with your cat or anything. Oh totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but at the same time When you see these signs of burnout or you see like, hey, this is how do you stop it?

Yeah, like how do you approach in a way that's respectful and obviously lets them make that final decision but also it's like i'm trying to do what's best for you and are there kind of times where you're like Them putting 100 percent is better for the company and the product, but it's not better for like them, you know.

Olivia: Yeah, so I have I have I have yeah, I have a few I have a few examples on that I would say first and foremost what you said last was actually really interesting about like Balancing what's good for the company and what's good for them And ultimately like I really do believe in this and this is again This is my hot take a lot of managers do not agree with me on this What's good for the company is good for the employee Truly like if this if this employee is working so hard for a month straight That they haven't seen their friends.

They haven't done their laundry. They haven't cleaned their house They're mentally struggling Their work is never gonna be as good as it would be if they were taking care of themselves And like I really do believe in that because i've seen it in my own life time and time again because i'm a chronic crank 100 percent giver, like chronic.

Um I think a really, really critical part of managing people is you have to know your people. You gotta actually know these people. You're gonna take him out for a drink, take him out for lunch.

Um, I would get in trouble all the time. This is a dirty little secret. I would get in trouble all the time for taking my team out to lunch. But you know what? At the end of the day, no matter what happened, my team was the most cohesive. We were the most together. Because we knew each other. Yeah. Because we had established those roads with each other.

 Um, and I really do believe in camaraderie as like a massive, massive part of managing people. Um, and not just camaraderie where it's like, you know, hum ho, we're all on the same fucking team. Right. Like, no, that's That's useless. I'm sorry. That's useless.

You have to actually be human being around other people. Um, the best managers I have had have been real and honest with me. Um, they told me when they're tired, they've prefaced when they're having a bad day, they've acknowledged when they haven't done something correctly and it's affected the rest of the team, which happens all the time.

Um, and I think Those managers, I was like, okay, I'm gonna pick that, that, that, I'm going to bring that to my, my, my chili, if you will, my sauce. Um, and so when I was caring for my team, I took it as like a very motherly role almost. And this is not something that like a lot of people might do. You know, a lot of people will be very like, Oh, this is my boundary with them.

Like I'm not going to let them in on my life. But for me, I knew these people in a little bit of a different context, and gaming is such a small world. Yeah, you adjusted to fit the environment. You adjusted to fit the environment, exactly. But, at the same time, even though I know all these fools on my team, and I love them, Uh, they all required different kinds of management.

Um, and that was a massive challenge for me because I didn't understand that at first. I was like, man, like, I think I just need to, to take kind of a universal approach. And then I learned very quickly that that did not work for certain people. Yeah. And so I had to take a more tailored approach, but that takes time to learn.

That takes one on ones that takes, you know, individual lunches. Um, that takes also like recommendations. That was something that like creating unique and bespoke conversation with the people that you're managing is important because you're not only sharing resources. But you're learning from them. Like I don't have the answers to the universe But I'm gonna try my best and like all I'm asking you to do is like also try your best and like we'll figure it Like that's really I think the ethos In very simple, plain terms of like what I've always tried to do as a people manager, um, whether it be freelance, whether it be salaried, whether it be corporate, commercial narrative, um, we're a team and I'm going to try and show up as my best self.

I want you to try and show up as your best self, but we're also human. And if you can't do that, that's okay. Cause guess what? You're on a team and other people can help support you in areas where you need to work on things. Um, 

Camille: You said so many things that I want to go back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

Yeah. First thing. Um With the 80 20. Yeah, and the part about like well a hundred better for the company. Yeah, I think Most managers would say they agree with you with like, oh, yeah in the long term if my employees are happy Oh, yeah, our work is better But I think in the short term there's trouble where it's like I just need you to push through and get this project done Yeah, we'll rest later or like I know this isn't the norm, but if you can just yeah stay late or do whatever Yeah, so what I guess mainly what do you say to those people and kind of that mentality totally?

Maybe long term they're like, yeah, those things work in tandem, but short term they feel at odds. 

Olivia: Yeah. Yeah It's all about expectation setting. I think that's a massive part of making sure that your team knows what's up. Um, if you I think this is a big thing in producing, especially, I mean, filmmaking in general, um, one of the biggest things that you need to get good at if you're a producer is anticipating things.

So that means having a plan A, a plan B, a plan C, a plan D. Doesn't mean all those plans are going to get used, but it means that you're mentally prepared if A falls through, you know where to go next. If B falls through, you go to, you know what I mean, you have a plan of action. And it doesn't mean you have to like meticulously write everything out.

That's going to happen, but you mentally prepare yourself. And like, for me, what that meant in terms of bringing that mentality to a team, anticipating things is that everybody on my team was a producer. Like that's, that's kind of how our system worked. And that's how I like to run a lot of teams is I like to give people their independence, but with the support that, Hey, you've got.

You've got Johnny next to you. You've got Sarah on the other, whoever, you've got a team around you.

Camille: The other thing. Yeah, that was great. The other thing that you mentioned, which I think Is so important to know people at least on like a human level to some extent you don't need to know their whole lives but Seeing them as a human versus just a colleague I think is really helpful, especially when things do get tough Yeah, or it's like hey i'm having a bad month.

Yeah um, but I think sometimes it's hard to build that I Don't know if this is fully tied to the pandemic, but I feel like it's kind of started there in my, from my perspective of like people trying to bond, but doing these extra things and people like, I am so tired of being on my laptop. Yeah.

And I think it kind of spilled into now where, um, I think a lot of folks are experiencing burnout or like continuing to experience it back from the deep pandemic. And so when it's like, Hey, do you want to go get a drink? They're like, no, I do not want to see you anymore. Like, this is a job. I came here to work.

Um, so one thing when you mentioned lunch, I was like, okay, everyone has to eat lunch and it's part of work. But I also am wondering how you kind of cope with the, this is important. We need to do this without being like, It's required that you go get a drink with me after work. Oh yeah. And I'm sure like there's already that a little bit of rapport and even just being in certain spaces, it's kind of understood like we might hang out a little bit, but I'm curious how you approach that.

Olivia: Oh yeah. Oh God. Wow. That's a, that's a great question. Um, I think the first part of that I want to, I want to kind of answer is, um, as a manager, you have to understand, That there is inherently always a power dynamic.

Like that was something I struggled with when I first got into the job, because at first I didn't have the team that I just kind of loosely described.

I had another team and I had to actually fire. That entire team after three months because I came into a team that was struggling and I came into a team Where the folks that were on the team were not matched for the scope of work where the company wanted to go And so I had to make changes to match that right I had to make changes to Tough changes changes.

I did not want to do firing people is hands down the worst thing. Like I would honestly near it to a breakup because I'm a very empathetic person. Um, and so when you're sitting across the table, I've been laid off plenty of times.

But like you can't sit on the, first of all, HR departments love them, but like firing people is so clinical and so yuck, like you literally just have to sit there.

You can't say anything as a manager. You can't like talk to them like a human being. You just have to be like, well, yada, yada, yada, your position's been dissolved. Exactly. And that was a point where I had actually recognized. Because previous to that, I was very close with that team. I was very close with them, very chatty, you know, um, and not to say like, you can't do that, but I felt that I was blurring the line of like me being their boss and me being their friend.

And when push came to shove two of them, I had had conversations with previous where I was like, Hey, I really think for your own career, you should start exploring freelance. Because I think you need to grow in certain areas

um, and, you know, they kind of got it, right? 

Camille: It was like, wink, wink. 

Olivia: It was like a wink, wink, like, hey. It's also like, I'm witnessing your career, and I'm witnessing what a mediocre job you're doing, and if you're doing a mediocre job, but you still have the dream and the, you know,

If you're doing a mediocre job, and you still have the passion to get to a next level That means that you need a change. That means that you need to re evaluate what you're doing, because what you're doing isn't working. You're not learning anything. The other one, I had had very frank and honest conversations with, and Um, was like, Hey, you know, this person in particular was getting way overpaid for their position because they had come in previous to me.

And basically they got a sweet deal because they caught the company in a bad position, which I was like one, you know, I'm clapping for them. Cause like, I love to see, you know, a high salary. Like I do, I love it. Like, why not get paid, get your bag. But at the same time, if you're not putting in the work, That equates to that bag and you're not bringing, like you gotta know you're getting paid so much more.

And I was very clear with this person. I was like, you're getting paid so much more than other people on your team. They can be mediocre and it not, and it goes under the radar. You can't be mediocre because you are what you, they are paying for you to be here is not mediocre. And this person had been mediocre and they had known they were being mediocre.

And so that was a very hard conversation because I, you know, said the script and they basically got very upset and started not yelling, but like, we're, we're up there. We're at a nine, 10. Uh, and they were very upset and they were like, why didn't you tell me about this? Like, how long have you known this?

How long have you made this decision? You know, you 

Camille: betrayed me. You 

Olivia: betrayed me. And I was in, it was in that moment, I was like, holy shit, I didn't do my job as a manager too. really pound in the seriousness of which this situation was so that this person could be accurately prepared for this moment. And so I immediately was like, wow, like I, I need to rethink how I'm actually interacting with my team. Um, and then also I had to hire a new team, you know what I mean? Um, and so that moment for me in particular was a big moment where I had to say, okay, you can be friendly, you can be friends, but you have to acknowledge that there's a power dynamic.

You can't pretend that doesn't exist. Um, and that power dynamic, what it really ultimately means is respect and boundaries. And there has to be that, or else things get weird. And I made a concerted effort to say, Hey, team, I would love to do a lunch so we can talk about specific projects.

Or hey, I would love to do lunch so that we can, so that there's an intention, right? So it's part, we're hanging out, we're having fun. We're still working. We're still working. But we're doing it in a way that's creative and fun. That's the one thing. Man, managing creatives is so different than managing folks that are doing a more, I don't even know, I don't even know what to say.

A job that's like a task that's linear. Yeah, like something that has like, you know, a list that you just execute on. Um, because creatives need time to do nothing. Creatives need time to one, be enriched. That was one thing my entire career. I was always so pissed because I would be with these managers who would be like Oh, we want you to reference this.

We want you to reference that but they would never take us on like field trips or Recommend books or movies. So you basically were like out on an island Being like, oh, I need to replicate this childish Gambino video, but like not, I've never seen him. I'm not saying take your team to a concert, I mean, hey, you know what, take your 

Camille: team 

Olivia: to a concert, I mean, hey, that'd be really fun.

But I mean it more so in the way of like, you have to pair education with expectations. And that was something that I learned when I kind of went through that process of like, I would take my team to lunch, but I'm picking up the bill, right? Cause you know, yeah, you, you mentioned like, how do you balance when someone feels obligated to go to something, right? Versus like they want to go to something. I was the type of boss where Manager I always like my team in particular, I would always make things optional.

So I never wanted them to feel like, cause I'm going to be honest, there are so many team happy hours and bullshit that like, I never wanted to go to because I live in East LA and the company that a lot of the companies I've worked for are in Culver City. And I'm sorry, I don't want to drive an hour and a half.

To get drinks at Jameson's. Like, I just don't like, I don't, I don't want to do it. Um, nobody's picking up my gas bill, you know? So I never put my team in a position where it was like, Oh, this is mandatory. You have to do this. It was something we all looked forward to. And like that's a collective energy that you can feel.

And if people aren't looking forward to something, Then cut it. Do something else. There were days where, like, I was telling them, like, Hey, we should go to the Academy Museum because there's so many exhibits. I would love to show you guys what left like there were a lot of things I would reference that I would tell them like, Oh, that's what the Academy Museum, you know, and my team, you know, we would get busy with those sprints.

Right. Those sprints when they happen. Um, and we would be working hard and then, you know, a couple weeks would go by and someone on the team in a team meeting would go, so when are we going to the Academy Museum? You know what I mean? Like it was something they were looking forward to. Yeah. They're bringing it up.

And I think that goes back to like that sense of independence. Ask your team what the hell they want to do. Um, ask your team for what they need. I think that's like a big thing too managers forget to do. Like I was constantly, every, every, we do like a team meeting every week. We start off the team meeting.

What did you guys watch this weekend? What did you guys do this weekend? Uh, what inspired you recently? Um, do you have any pitches you want to bring to the table? And that created an environment where people, one, we're excited to come to work because you could have a conversation with your friends about, or your coworkers slash friends about, you know, Oh, I saw this movie.

It was great. I want to take this and put it into that. You know what I mean? Like you have to feed the mind as a creative. And if you do that in a corporate environment, I think you find a lot more success than if you're just constantly like this assignment and then that assignment, and then you're just leaving your team alone to kind of develop those skills themselves.

It's really hard to be inspired by things you don't know don't exist. Right, right, right, right. Like you have to feed your team. 

Camille: Yeah. Yeah. 

Olivia: Yeah.

Camille: What are 

Olivia: some 

Camille: qualities you look for when you're building your team yeah and like maybe some like green flag questions that I don't know if you do traditional interviews, but like that someone might ask you in the interview for your life.

Ooh. 

Olivia: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. That's a great one. No, I, I actually love doing interviews. It's one of my favorite things, um, because I just like to chat and like, I feel like everybody comes into an interview and expects like, you know, Oh, I gotta, I gotta brush my hair and like, Oh, I gotta look perfect. And I show up and I'm like this dude in a t shirt and like curly, messy hair.

And I'm just like, Hey, what's up? Like, how are you? How was your weekend? Like, um, I try very hard to be disarming. I don't want anybody to come into a conversation with me and feel like they have to put on. Like I, I like honesty, like just be yourself. That's all I really want you to be. Um, and I think in interviews it's funny cause I've actually interviewed, um, potential folks for positions where I've been like, Oh my God, I had an amazing conversation with this person.

They're my first pick. And then I talked to the rest of my team and they're like, Oh really? Like, I just feel like I couldn't get to know that person. And I'm like, well, did you tell, did you talk to this person as if they were a human being?

Or did you talk to this person as if they were a product? Right. Like, and I think that is a tricky one because you will find as you get up further up the ladder, the people you thought knew everything, know nothing. And I know that sounds terrible.

I'm not saying they know nothing. You know, we all know something, but we don't know at all. Nobody knows at all. And anybody who acts like they do. Red flag. Red flag. That's actually a major red flag to me. If somebody comes into an interview and i'm asking them like because you know, everybody always asks a question like what's a situation where you know, you Felt you had to like rise to the occasion or like, you know, however, they word it.

It's all the same question What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses if somebody comes into an interview and they're like, well, here's my long list of strengths And my one weakness is that I'm sometimes late. I'm gonna be like A girl, okay, me too, I'm late every single day of my life, but that doesn't tell me, I don't know what to expect, you know what I mean, I don't know how to solve your problem, because you're not telling me honestly, like, what you struggled with, and I really appreciate honesty, like, I would rather you go into an interview and be real, and again, this is, I'm saying all of this, I'm a 28 year old, Manager with a very progressive view on how to do things.

So not everybody 

Camille: going against every interview 

Olivia: Exactly. I'm going against every interview training ever But I think that this is the direction things are moving because there are gonna be more people like me We're aging up now the people who were You know 90s babies We're about to be 30 We have managerial jobs, some of us.

We're managing people. And it's up to us to decide, do we want to be like those old fuckin hoagies up the fuckin you know what I mean? Like, do we want to be like Bob, who has been here for 25 years and is miserable, and everyone on his team is miserable? No. I don't want to be Bob. I want to be Liv. Um, and I want everybody on my team to be themselves.

Um, because if you have to go to work And be a completely different person. What is that doing to your mental health longterm? Nothing, nothing good, nothing good. It's going to break your sense of self apart. And I would much rather be a part of that process that makes your sense of self feel more whole.

Camille: Yeah. Um, speaking of problem solving and you touched on this earlier, but I definitely need to ask you, yeah, how do you approach interpersonal and performance problems on your team? Yes. And I know you mentioned like, Hey, You're doing kind of a mediocre job. Yeah, might be good to like, yeah, you have positions, but um, so we heard a little bit about that, but I'm curious if there's more you want to share on that, but also specifically interpersonal where it's like, Maybe your work is fine, but the dynamic on the team is an issue because 

Olivia: of whatever.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I actually had a member of my team, um, superstar kid, genius. I mean, absolute genius when it came to content. His social skills, whew, they needed work. They needed work. I think something that is really interesting with that situation was that, you know, I myself as an adult started to understand and investigate and take care of my own mental health. In a way that was completely different than the way I was raised. I was raised not to believe in therapy.

I was raised autism wasn't real. I was raised, you know, like I was raised to think all these things were just, Oh, you just need to try harder. It's your own fault. And that's a horrific way of looking at things because Jesus Christ, we're not robots. We don't all come out the same. And just because somebody has a different ability than you do doesn't make, you know what I mean?

It's just ridiculous. Like I think the way that disability is looked at in this country is horrific. Um, So what I did as an adult is I really started taking my mental health seriously And part of that journey was understanding that I am autistic, that I am on the spectrum And even though I am highly functioning, even though I am very social, there's a lot of things about my life that intrinsically change my mood, bother me, make me uncomfortable things that I cannot change, but I can prepare.

I can prepare for the fact that I don't like loud noises and that I have trouble at concerts or packed venues by putting in, you know, proper hearing. Devices to like limit the amount of volume and noise that I'm hearing. Um, I can wear sunglasses to help me deal with overstimulation. There's a lot of things that I have learned that I can do for myself to make myself more comfortable and more apt to do the things that I actually want to do.

So that process happened actually alongside and very close to the kind of story I'm about to tell about this one person I was managing. And so I had noticed, in particular, this person, I had observed them be very isolated in the workplace. Now, mind you, this is a workplace of less than 30 people. So it is intimate.

And if you are isolated, it is obvious.

Um, you can tell when someone's staying late at work to play games by themselves. That's a little, you know, you gotta kind of ask why they're doing that. In gaming, a lot of people will stay late to play games, but they'll play with their co workers. Because it's part of the fandom, it's part of the co cohesion of everybody, you know.

You, you go into battle at work, you go into battle in the game, you know what I mean? It, it creates It creates confidence and trust. Um, but this particular individual, I had observed them continuously being isolated.

I had observed them continuously shifting the vibe of the room when they entered it. From a positive go lucky one to a more uncomfy one, not to their own fault, it wasn't necessarily that they were doing something, but it was the lack of, I could observe the lack of trust and the lack of connection that the rest of the employees had the company with this person and you also have to remember this person is a highly, highly a successful individual.

This person was doing the best numbers on our team, right? And on our team, I think everybody kind of had an understanding of like, hmm, okay, this person's a little different. So it wasn't as disparate, but they weren't teaming up willingly, you know what I mean? And so, you know, I had talked, I had had my one on ones, you know, and instead of going, Hey, I've noticed you've been alone a lot lately.

Are you okay? Which is a terrible way to go about things. Um, I said You know, I really uh appreciate you staying late after work. I know you're working really hard I'm curious. Do you find it easier to work? When there's nobody around right you ask an entry entryway question, okay You've got because these kids Man, people, you come into a room with your boss, you're already nervous.

You know what I mean? Like, why would I make you more nervous? You know, I'm trying to get to the heart of the problem. And if I, if your anxiety prevents me from doing that, then we're both losing. So I try to keep it calm, casual. And not focus on like what the direct issue is and start to get the circumference of like, hey, what are the issues around the issue?

Because a lot of times you'll find that there's a direct, direct connection. So this particular person had said, yeah, I actually do really work better alone. I actually really prefer being by myself because I find it really hard to focus. When there's a lot of voices around, keep in mind this is an open office format.

You could hear everything. Um, so he was saying, you know, the visual stimulation, the audio stimulation, um, also they felt uncomfortable because they didn't feel connected to the rest of the team. They didn't feel like they were getting their best work done when other people were around because they felt self-conscious.

And I think one thing people don't talk enough about with autism is people being extremely self-conscious. A lot of folks with autism are very self-aware, but they're not necessarily, you're not necessarily processing it the same as everybody else. And so this particular person. Audio, you know, basically they were overstimulated when we were during working hours.

And so I made an adjustment. I said, okay, thank you so much for telling me that. And I was like, honestly, I'm the same way. Don't worry about it. I understand. I empathize with you. I get it. I think that's very important as a manager to do is to be able to look someone in the eyes and say, Hey, I'm really sorry.

You're going through that. I, okay. Either if you experience it yourself, you know, you can say I understand or if you don't experience it yourself You can say I really empathize with you. I want to help you get to a better place. So I talked to my boss, my CEO, and I was like, Hey, like this person really needs some accommodations.

I think it would really help their work. And I actually got a lot of pushback. I got a lot of pushback, which I was not expecting. I thought I was going to go in here and be like, Oh, no problem. We'll get them a little space on the side. We can adjust their working hours, whatever. Um, and I got a lot of pushback and you know what the pushback was about.

My CEO, uh, at the time had vocalize that they felt if the person wasn't actively in the bullpen that they were not being part of the team and that they felt that they couldn't manage their work. And I was like, well, it's up to me to manage their work. And I have confidence in this person that this is going to work, you know, and that, and I will take responsibility.

I think that's one that managers don't talk about this enough. You got to take responsibility for your team. Like, and this is the same thing when I'm directing things. Cause I direct as well. If you're the director, it doesn't matter who makes a mistake on set. It doesn't matter what happens. It's your responsibility.

At the end of the day, you are driving that ship. And so I very much was like, Hey, let me try this out with them. If it doesn't work, you know, we'll make adjustments, but let me at least try. And then, you know, my CEO also gave me the feedback of like, Hey, while you're trying that, can you also try to help them with their social skills?

And I was like, absolutely. So, you know, we'd made the accommodations. We tried to make it a little easier. I started to notice that that helped and that worked. And then at the same time, I was also helping with one on one meetings, having these conversations with this person. And really getting to the nitty gritty of like, okay, you feel separate from the group.

How do we create these threads and these connections? And a lot of, a lot of what I learned as a manager that was helpful was actually from studying psychology. I was about to say, because 

Camille: this is feeling, if I got this, I'd be like, this is out of my job scope. I am not a therapist. I do not know how to change this social dynamic.

So I'm like, that feels daunting, first of all. But also, It really does play into the work. So it is, it's important. It does kind of fall in. It's important, 

Olivia: man. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing about people is like, we're not machines. And thank God, like, we're not machines. Um, Because you get so much richness through those interactions, and I was not, you know, I never studied psychology, seriously, um, and I was not an academic person.

Because I think for a long time I really struggled with it. I have just, I have terrible dyslexia, terrible dyslexia, um, to the point where I don't like reading. I've actually found that alternative learning services like imprint or there's like a lot of like, doomscrolling alternatives now, um, that are like graphic design.

It's like a picture book. That is perfect for me. I know it sounds maybe immature, but like, I have dyslexia, words are confusing, and pictures are how my brain works. So, you know, you have to accommodate, you have to make accommodations for yourself, man. You got to make a space where you work the best, because not everyone's going to recognize that.

Um. But yeah, sorry, I took you off track. Yes, no, no, no, I know. So you're like, you have to find these threads. We have to find these threads. And so, you know, from studying psychology. You know, I kind of brought what I knew to these conversations and I would go, you know, to this person, well, how do you feel when you're standing in a room with your coworkers and everyone's in the lunchroom and they're having a conversation?

Like how, how do you usually feel? And he goes, well, I feel like I don't have anything to contribute. I don't feel like if I did say anything, anyone would listen. And I feel like if I say something, I'm going to say it wrong. And I was like, okay, this is a good start. This that's, that's unpacked that like, that's break it down.

And ultimately it was confidence. It was self esteem. And it was also, I think a defensiveness that was preventing him from connecting with people. And so we started to work through that where I would say, you know, every week I would go, you know, okay, what's something you love and who can you talk to in the office about it?

Is that's one thing and and I will say I have to I have to be honest and like be very transparent This individual never told me they have autism and it's not my place to diagnose them. I'm not a doctor I can only speak from my own experiences Whatever they were experiencing mentally it needed additional support and it needed accommodations.

So I will be clear that I don't like, you know I don't, I don't have the, the skill set to diagnose them, but I do have the skill set to help them and make accommodations. Um, and that's their own personal business that they're working through. Um, so this person started talking to people in the office more, started having more one on one time.

I told them, hey, one on ones, not just for us. You can have one on ones with anyone in the office. You can play games with anybody in the office. And I was like, why don't we start with just one on one time so that that way when you get into those rooms where there's multiple people around, you have a touchstone with each one of them where you can start a conversation or you can feel included upon the situation.

They get the conversation that they're already having. Right. And so, Over, I would say like a two, three month span. This was a big focus for this individual and I, like we were active, this was like in their feedback, like this was like a very active and documented thing we were working on. 

Camille: Oh wow. 

Olivia: Um, yeah, cause it was that bad.

Like it was that bad to the point where like this person had the best numbers at the company. But was not getting the recognition people were always giving me feedback. I don't like how this person talked to me. I don't like how this person was part, they weren't part of the team. Um, this person is awkward, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, okay, I appreciate that you guys give me this feedback. I do. But at a certain point, You need to talk to the person because I'm not there all the time. So let's have these meetings together. And we started having meetings together, especially I will say with higher ups, cause this was a big issue.

There were a couple of higher ups that in my opinion, we're kind of bullying this employee. Every time they did something, it wasn't enough or the way they did it wasn't right. Right. And instead of them having that conversation, they would bitch to me about it. And I was like, that's not going to ever solve anything.

So I got us all in a room with the other, you know, the other things are happening in the background. Right. And I would ask the, the, uh, VP or, you know, whoever in C suite it was, I would say, you know, so we've had some conversations about, you know, some things that can improve.

I would love to hear kind of from your perspective, like what things. are tricky for you right now that are inhibiting your department or your job from, from being more cohesive. And this person, not my favorite person, by the way . I feel like they know that, um, this person really struggled with anger.

They were a very angry person. And angry people are scary. Nobody wants to talk to an angry person. It is literally built into our nervous system to run away from that person. Um, and so immediately they kind of went into a berating state of like, you did this, you did that, da, da, da. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh my God, I'm like, this is not how this is going.

And so I go, um, you know, I'm sitting next to this person. So I, I tapped them on the, on the shoulder. Cause I, we had a rapport enough to where I didn't feel like that would be weird. I would never do that if I felt like it was weird. But I tapped them cause I know that sometimes when something is going on and I can't, I'm starting to disassociate, it's really helpful if somebody just 

Camille: brings you back.

So 

Olivia: I was bringing him back cause I'm like, Ooh, I'm getting lost. I know you're lost. Like this person is just popping off. Let them tire themselves out. Because sometimes, sometimes you just have to do that. I um, and then I said, you know, thank you so much for bringing that to our attention.

Let's think of some actionable ways that we can change these issues. So that we can all work better together. I didn't tell her she was wrong. I didn't tell her she was being mean because if I said any of those things in that moment, anything but a direction towards a solution, she's already in a triggered state.

She's already upset. She's not going to give a shit and she's going to make it toxic. So I kept, you know, Ooh, redirect, redirect. And so we're redirecting and I go, you know, I won't, I acknowledge your feedback. I want to also move it to, to this person, my person on my team so that they can. Provide their feedback and provide a little more context.

Context is so important. And I had already prepped him. I knew this was going to be a tough situation. Don't just throw your, don't throw your employees to the wolves. Like, prep them. Have some time to sit down and go, okay, do you have any questions before we go into this meeting?

You know that this is going to be an intense meeting. I know that it's going to be intense. Like set the scene. The worst is when you get into a work situation and it's like, Oh, all of a sudden, like always we're at 10 and we don't know how we got there. You know what I mean? Especially in a work environment.

And, um, He kind of, you know, thoughtfully thanked her for her feedback, as we had walked through, thanked her for her feedback, told her how he wants to take accountability and he wants to improve, and then he went into, you know, I've been struggling with, and this is the result of, and I'd love it if you told me how to get better.

It's a, it's a process. You have to tell people what you need at the end of it. Because if you just tell them what's wrong, we're all just gonna be stuck in a bog of wrong of stuff that doesn't work, you know? So we have to action item. Action item. And um, we worked through it. We came up with a plan. She fizzled out.

In terms of like, you know, we went from a 10 to like a three, she still had a little sass, but like, you know, we were at a manageable place. And, um, we started putting that plan in action and we had bumps along the road, don't get me wrong. Um, but in conjunction with the social training we were doing, he improved so much.

And I would say within like six months, he went from being Like the office joke to somebody that people could joke with and that was so Like I don't want to get emotional about it because it like really It was like one of the first times in my life. I had seen people problem gets solved so clearly.

Yeah. Like it's really hard to, you know, okay, you're talking about KPIs. You're like, okay, we need to hit these numbers by X, Y, and Z time. That's an easy thing to track. It's really hard to track public opinion. It's hard to track how your coworkers feel about you and how that affects your collaborations.

You know, Um, but by, I think, I think truly by, by creating an environment of trust, creating an environment of vulnerability and us being real and open about our feelings and respectful, it started to move the needle towards not just my team, but I saw the other teams at our work. also start to improve because they also started doing the same things.

Not necessarily like, oh, my other directors were like, what were you doing? You know, but you know, when one, when the person who doesn't talk to anybody in the office starts to approach you and ask you about something that you have a common interest, you then are more open to it. To believing in yourself to have those conversations with other people and so I noticed in a very Six month timeline.

Like the office went from kind of like everyone had the ick about somebody to, Oh, we're like kind of one big happy family. And I think a lot of that, like, you know, it is camaraderie, it is talking to each other. Um, but it is the manager setting that example for everybody else.

Camille: You have said so many great things that I think, I'm hoping people will really like and apply. Um, but to kind of break it down a little bit, let's say my first day as a people manager is tomorrow, like What would you want me to know? Mm hmm. And how would you recommend I prepare myself? 

Olivia: Mmm, okay first job.

I'm first First day on the job as a people manager. I would definitely recommend team meeting Off the bat, whoever you are managing, have a team meeting with them. Um, you can even call it a town hall and introduce yourself. Maybe have like a fun little slideshow or show some of your work or talk about you as a human being.

Mm-Hmm. disarm the expectation that you're gonna be their boss right off the bat. Like let them know what's up. Let them know. Hey, you're safe here. We're in this together I'm not here to take you down. I'm here to bring you up with me So that's like first things first. I would say do that hear them out. I think the first thing That often happens when you're on a team.

That's new is that you Sometimes don't learn about like the worst issues that they're going through until like two or three weeks down the line when somebody finally gets the Gets the urge to be like, I'm sick of this, whatever it is, you know, uh, get ahead of it, like have that town hall, ask them honestly, like, hey, what do you feel like?

Make a flow chart, make some, do some visual aids. Get on the whiteboard, you know, make a list of things that are strengths of your team, make a list of things that you want to improve. And it doesn't have to be, like, I think the best thing about starting as a group is that you will very quickly notice.

What the dynamic is between everybody and by asking people, what are the group or the team issues you're not singling people out, but you will very quickly see if there is somebody on the team who is singling somebody out because when people are given the chance. To open open field of what I want to say You know, someone's gonna come in with a snide comment and be like, well, we're doing really good at this But I think this needs improvement because you know, Bob Bobby's not doing his job Whatever and that's you need to know that, you know I mean you need to know that and you need to know if they're willing to say that in front of the rest of the group Because that will tell you How deep it is.

So I would say first things first get that town hall Introduce yourself be real be vulnerable Set the table the way you want it to be set and let them come to the dinner to the dinner party You know what?

I mean? Um From there, I would say then go into the one on ones You Make them meaningful. Don't just, I mean, I know it's tough cause you know, we only have so much time in the day schedule an hour. I fucking hate when people schedule one on ones and it's for like 15 minutes. What are we going to say hi to each other and talk about the weather?

That's it. Like we're not going to actually get to a deep conversation. Um, so I like to schedule one on ones for an hour, you know, um, depending on how many people there are on your team, you could take people out to lunch. If you have the budget to do so, or if you just as a kind manager and somebody who's working with empathy want to put up your own money, which I do advocate for this.

I do.

So the set expectations, pay it forward. Investigate the good things and the not so good things about your team right off the bat. Have those one on ones. And then also, I would say this is less about like, managing the people that you manage, and more so managing up. Which is becoming more and more of a COMMON OCCURRENCE, which is really annoying.

Because it sucks having to manage up somebody who's like making 200k than you. 200k more than you. Um, but you have to. Because it will make your life easier. It will. Um, so after you Kind of have a good handle and good read of your team I would say make sure that you're meeting and having meaningful conversations with your boss and with the people that you know There's other director heads that you're gonna have to interact with take them to dinner Difference right?

It's dinner. It's drinks It's I'm trying to get you as a get to know you as a human being and have you see me as a human being The stuff with your team, yeah, like, I think it's kind of silly to expect like, after hours, like, okay, we've already dedicated a whole day and hour, you know what I mean? But director level, that's part of what you sign up for.

You're not just 9 to 5ing it, and that's unfortunate, but it is also like, Part of that side of things So don't make it miserable for the people that it is nine to five for you know what I mean?

But, um, connect those two groups directly to yourself first so that you can establish trust with them. And then everything else will become easier.

I think that's like the biggest thing. Trust, vulnerability, empathy. Respect you got to show people that if you're willing to give it to them, they'll be more willing to give it to you You know So 

Camille: great. Yeah a little step by step There you go Um, is there anything else you want to add that we haven't discussed yet and no pressure.

Olivia: Oh my god 

Camille: It doesn't need to be 

Olivia: I feel so bad. I feel like we I feel like I never stopped talking. Um I didn't invite you here to 

Camille: talk, so 

Olivia: I do have one. It's not bad. I do have one, because I feel like I didn't do a good job of answering this. Um, talking about the difference between freelance and corporate salary, you brought up a really beautiful point about, like, you have so much less time with the freelance teams than you do the full time teams.

I think something really critical that a lot of producers don't do And like, I've experienced this a lot because I'm also the great thing about like my career trajectory truly. And I did build it this way is that I've been a cinematographer, I've been a producer, I've been a director. So I know how all three of those things feed into each other.

And I also know how all three of those jobs can be better collaborators together. So selling for me as a producer, Is that, you know, producer, you're like the parent of the production. You got to make sure nobody gets hurt. You got to make sure everybody knows the schedule, what's happening, when, where they need to go, what their stations are.

You are the logistics. You are the problem solver person. That's you. That's you. So I like to, with my freelance teams, When I'm a week out, two weeks out, however long of a runway I can give them, I will try to share with them any creative materials that I have so that they can be an active part of the process.

Instead of just feeling like a day player Because I think that's like the worst thing when you're freelancing is like when you just feel like you're day playing everywhere And you don't get to like make connections with people you don't get to like lock in you don't have Commonalities you're just kind of there.

So first things first Try to communicate as much as possible with your freelance teams. I'm not perfect at it I fuck up all the time on this you're gonna fuck up on this like it's not gonna be perfect But if you're putting the effort into it people will notice and acknowledge that so something is better than nothing I always say with freelance like just give them something, you know, so In the days leading up, be very clear about the booking.

This is another thing I notice with so many producers, and it pisses me off to no end, is that you'll get a producer hitting you up and they'll go, they'll text you from some unknown number and they'll go, Hey, are you available Saturday? Okay, for what? Like, who, uh, one, who the fuck is this? Like, who are you?

What's the pay? What's the job? Where is it? And what are the times? Like, give me some basic information here. So, you know, that would be another thing I say is like, If you're a freelance producer, recognize that the people you're working with are also freelance, they're also working multiple jobs, be fucking specific about what the job is, um, and be specific about what the boundaries are, right?

Camille: Yeah. Okay. Last question. Yeah. That I'm asking everyone at the end.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, what keeps you up at night industry or otherwise? 

Olivia: Oh God. Okay, so I actually do have an answer to this. So there was an interview that Scorsese did recently, I want to say, or like sometime in the past year, where he said something about, you know, being in his 80s or like 70s, however old he is an old man now, right?

And he was like, Man, I'm pissed that I'm this old. And I just now feel like I know what I wanna make or it was like something to that extent, I'm probably like butchering the actual quote of it. Um, but that is what keeps me up at night is this kind of idea that if you're a lifelong learner, there really is no like end, like there's no I've arrived.

Mm. It's like a series of arrivals. It's a series of departures. It's a series of you. Like making something and then 15 years later watching it and being like, I hate this or I love this or Oh, I would have changed. You know what I mean? Like, and I think that kind of keeps me up at night because I am as a kid always had this mentality and whether it was like sports or my family upbringing, like I was always put on a pedestal of must be successful.

You must do this right. There are no second chances. And that mentality was so anxiety inducing. And like, to this day, part of why I think I do things the way that I do, because I'm actively working against that, because nobody should be put on a pedestal like that. At the end of the day, we're all human beings.

We all make mistakes, whether it's somebody who is like the filmmaker that you admire the most. At the end of the day, they're still human. You know what I mean? Like, I think culturally, we put people up too much into these spaces, like a museum.

Like, it's like unreachable. And then we ask ourselves, like, why we all feel bad about ourselves. And it's like, Hmm, maybe because we're creating these unrealistic expectations of like what success and fame means. 

So that's what keeps me up at night.

That's what keeps me up at night. Just a little thing, you know. But no, that's why I smoke weed to go to bed.

Cause I would never sleep if that were the case. But yeah. That's great. 

Camille: Um, thank you so much for joining in. Sharing your experiences and thoughts and I hope it can help some people. 

Olivia: I hope so too. Or inspire, whatever 

Camille: they need. 

Olivia: Yeah, whatever they need. Thank you. 

Camille: Of course, thank you, this was so wonderful.

I'm glad.

Thanks for tuning into my conversation with Liv. If you want to stay up to date with them, you can find their social media accounts in the show notes. 

Please subscribe to the show anywhere you get your podcasts and leave a review to let me know what you think. You can also get updates on guests, episode releases, and more by following the show on Instagram at hold the door pod. 

I'll be back next week with an episode exploring what it's like to go from a corporate full time job to focusing full time on creative dreams. See you then