Grad School with Lhani Jamison

Welcome to Hold the Door - an entertainment career advice and networking podcast where host, Camille Wilson, explores how folks from underrepresented backgrounds have found a way to survive and thrive in the entertainment industry.

On this episode of Hold the Door, Lhani Jamison joins us to talk about grad school - how she made the decision to go, what her experience was like, and how it affected her career afterward.

You can connect with Lhani on LinkedIn and Instagram @Lhanmarie.

Make sure to subscribe to Hold the Door on your favorite listening platform. You can also get updates on guests, episode releases, and the biweekly newsletter by following the show on TikTok, Instagram, and Substack @holdthedoorpod.

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Camille: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the host and guests alone.

This is an aside that I will probably cut, but you don't watch All American, do you?

Lhani: And it was a Black man and Hispanic woman. So I think me, as a young Black woman, I was very disheartened.

Camille: So you're like, if anyone should understand where I'm coming from, it's you.

Lhani: Shout out therapy. Get you a therapist, for sure.

Camille: And a good one.

Lhani: Yeah. A Black one. No, I'm just kidding. 

[00:00:27] Camille: Hello. Thank you for tuning in for the first episode of Hold the Door. Lhani Jamison is here to tell us about grad school - how she made the decision to go, what her experience was like, and how it affected her career afterward.

Lhani Jamison is a Senior Account Executive at a leading Crisis Management and Creative Strategy firm.

She has nearly 10 years of experience across labor relations, DEI, and talent and casting in media and entertainment. She's held roles at NBCUniversal, the Walt Disney Company, and Warner Brothers Discovery in Los Angeles and London. She earned her BS in Industrial and Labor Relations with a minor in Film from Cornell University.

She also holds an MS in global media and communication from the London School of Economics and Political Science. And an MA in Global Communication from the University of Southern California's Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism. 

Lhani was born and raised in Prince George's County, Maryland, right outside of Washington, D.C. She currently lives in Los Angeles and, outside of work, enjoys spending time with family and friends, maximizing her AMC Stubs A list status, taking long walks, going to the beach, and playing tennis. Hope you enjoy our conversation.

Lhani, welcome to the pod. 

Lhani: Thank you. 

Camille: Thank you for being the first guest. 

Lhani: Of course. 

Camille: I feel like, um, in a way you're like actually making this happen, which is like a big deal.

Lhani: You are making this happen. So I appreciate you. Of course. 

Camille: So we're here to talk about grad school. 

Yes. So, grad school has always been appealing to me because, a degree feels like a way to level up, um, where you have a little more agency, at least over the timeline, and, I think sometimes I'm like, okay, I don't really know how I can get a promotion, how I can get this raise, how I can shift teams, but I do know how to do school. (Right.) And there are kind of like clear steps to get to the next level within the education system. Not always, but In this case. (Yeah.) So I want to talk about your experience actually going to grad school and graduating and then, kind of get into that experience. (Okay.) But first we'll back up a little bit and start with your logline and how you got into the entertainment industry.

Okay. Perfect. So, yes. We've heard your bio. So we know about like your career, and so we want to know a little bit more about you as a person. So the personal logline, shout out Jen Grisanti, is a one line summary of your life and where you are at this point. So as an example, mine is a Black Mexican Guamanian woman who identifies as a professional overthinker, embarks on a journey to do the thing she always secretly wanted to do.

Host a podcast. (Perfect.)

Okay, ready for yours?

Lhani:Yes, so my logline is Black woman who manages crises by day and writes poetry by night to reckon with her own trials living in LA, the city she loves but has yet to find love in. Dot dot. 

Camille: Maybe you'll get something out of this podcast.

Lhani: Maybe. Doubt it. 

Camille: You never know. You never know.

Lhani: We're open. Um, so yeah, that's my logline. (Thank you.) And then a bit about how I got into entertainment?

[00:03:56] Camille: Yeah, so we can start with how you got into the industry. (Okay.) And like, was entertainment always the plan? Did you fall into this? Where'd you come from? 

Lhani: Okay, so how I got into entertainment, I feel like, first of all, it wasn't always the plan.

Like, when I was in high school, I went to an all girls high school in D. C. and I actually thought I wanted to be a venture capitalist. We had a venture capitalist, like, (mmm, money) exactly. We had like someone's dad come speak to us and he had his JD and MBA. So I was like, perfect. Like, I think I'm just going to do that.

Cause then you can do anything and you'll be successful and just have that agency. So that's, that's what my original plan was, but then I kind of pivoted because my senior year at NCS, my high school, I became Equity Board President. And in that role, I got to plan Diversity Day and just a bunch of kind of activities and initiatives throughout the year to celebrate diversity.

It was, uh, you know, pretty majority white school, upper echelon, um, and so when people were diverse, I saw it as an opportunity to kind of celebrate difference. And so that's when I really solidified my passion for diversity and I knew that I wanted to continue that at Cornell.

So when I got to Cornell my freshman and sophomore year, I worked as a Community Advocate in the Office of Academic Diversity Initiatives, OADI, um, and that was a really cool role because we got to plan like workshops and seminars focused on kind of helping our mentees who are all students from greater Ithaca who are like elementary, middle, some high school age, really set them on a trajectory to go to college and do well.

And it was interesting because like Ithaca is like I don't know, it's a really unique town, like Lower Ithaca, people are called townies who live there, and like Upper Ithaca, where Cornell sits, it's kind of seen as like this city on a hill. And so our program was there to kind of bridge the gap in the community, and so I'll never forget. We planned this one workshop on self image, and my mentee, she was like in middle school at the time, um, she really expressed how she didn't feel like she had a positive self image because of a lot of the examples in media that she saw. And in that particular workshop, we used examples from Beyonce's Pretty Hurts video, and like, Jennifer C. Bell Newsom's film Misrepresentation, Dove's Real Beauty commercial, and like, to hear your mentee tell you, like, “I don't feel like I'm gonna be successful, I'm nothing like these women.” I was like, well that's a problem, like, that really hurts, and I'm like, that's the representation issue.

And I grew up watching films like Gladiator and Love and Basketball and Things We Lost in the Fire, just really incredible performances with people of color, but also just that showcase the power of storytelling. And so I was like, okay, well, I've been passionate about diversity. I'm passionate about film. Let me kind of combine those interests. So that's really what sparked my journey into entertainment. And that was my sophomore year, so that's when I actually applied and got an internship at NBCUniversal. And it was a credit internship, that's where we met at NBCUniversal, um, but it was in the Labor Relations department, which was kind of random at the time, but now super relevant given all of like the union struggles and the strikes, um, so that was really great.

I did a summer and a fall in LA and I was like, Oh yeah, LA is for me. I fell in love with LA. I fell in love with entertainment. Um, and so that was like my first foray into entertainment, which looking back, I'm like, that was good. Like I think NBCU and being on the Lot and being in LA for your first job is a really good way to get a lay of the land.

Camille: Yeah. I Love the Lot. (Yeah, me too.) I miss it every day.

Lhani: Me too. I miss it every single day. It's just like electricity you feel (Yeah) even if you're just getting coffee. (Yes) It's a great place to be and start for sure.

[00:07:53] Camille: So, okay, so you did know, or figured out, in college that you wanted to do entertainment and kind of bridge the gap between that and DEI. So at the time, did you have a job in mind or you just wanted to do those two things and were gonna figure out how to get there? 

Lhani: Yeah, it's a good question. I think when I was in my internship, a lot of what we did was basically the negotiations between the various unions and NBCUniversal. So we did a makeup and hairstylist negotiation that I saw from start to finish. We did one, um, with the news persons union.

And so I really valued the legal experience, um, in the entertainment industry, but I quickly realized I wanted to do something more creative. And it's so funny, I'll never forget when I was in my internship, I attended a Page Program informational like session where they had Pages come talk about their experiences, and I'm like, four months into my internship. And so I'm like, Oh, this is cute. But like, (I don’t need this) I'm not going to need this Page Program. Like, that's okay. Whatever. Um, but so fast forward to when I was like trying to figure out, you know, what I was going to do upon graduating from undergrad, I didn't get into grad school.

And so it was always on my list if I didn't, to apply to the Page Program. And I'm so glad I did because I didn't know exactly how I wanted to be like a creative business person. 

Camille: And you had to meet me.

Lhani: I had to. I had to be here. But like seriously, the Page Program, as you know, it really does at least like, I don't know, help you hone in on what you're interested in.

And like where we met in diversity programming, I was like, Oh yeah, this is my lane. Like combining the love of DEI and the programming interest. So that was my first like real solidified, solidified interest in what I wanted to do in entertainment. 

Camille: Nice. 

Lhani: Yeah. 

Camille: That's awesome. Um, and agreed. The Page Program, like, you really don't know what you don't know, (a hundred percent) and so I think it helps you learn some of those things, (yeah) or at least figure out who you can start talking to (exactly) to figure it out. 

Lhani: Yeah. 

[00:10:01] Camille: Um, okay, so you actually applied to grad school straight out of undergrad. I did. And then Once you decided, okay, actually, I'll be working first, was, at that time, was grad school like, just delayed, I'll do it?

Or at that time were you like, oh, didn't get in, I guess that's not for me. 

[00:10:17] Lhani: Yeah, I think I knew for my life that I wanted to go to grad school, and so it wasn't even a career decision, I was like, at some point I'll definitely go, but I think after, the programs that I applied to in undergrad were producers programs, I was like, I minored in film, and so after doing, um, this semester, At NBCUniversal for my credit internship, I studied abroad in Australia, so my whole junior year I was off campus.

And so my senior year, when I came back on campus, I was just fulfilling my, um, minor in Film. And so I was like, I'm going to be a filmmaker, I'm going to be a producer, like I'm ready, you know what I mean? And so I just applied, so funny looking back, I was so foolish. I just applied to, um,

Camille: Not foolish

Lhani: A little bit.

Camille: You were hopeful and optimistic.

Lhani: Yeah, I was, you're right. It's just funny. I, I can't even say it. I applied to USC, UCLA and NYU, or I don't even know. I didn't even apply to NYU. It was just USC and UCLA because I knew I wanted to be, um, in LA. I think I considered applying to NYU, but I was like, be for real, like, you just want to be in LA. And so it was so humbling and it was good for me, honestly, to not get in, um, because it just put me on this path of going, you know, back to LA and being in the Page Program and all of that.

Um, but so. After I did the Page Program, I think my mindset kind of shifted towards business school. So before I ended up applying to the school that I ended up going to and doing that program, I like took the GMAT. I was like fully prepared to be, you know, applying to consortium and all the different programs to try to get scholarships to get an MBA.

And it was during the pandemic, and I was like, I don't, I don't want to do this. You know what I mean? Like, the classes in undergrad, because I majored in Industrial and Labor Relations, that I really didn't like.

Like, the econ courses and stats. I didn't want to have to do that in grad school and I couldn't escape stats at LSC. But, um, I actually did really, really well in that. (Nice) So I'm really happy about that experience.

Camille: Toot your horn.

Lhani: Exactly. I was like, I was so anxious about it too, but it ended up being like one of my best grades.

(Nice.) Um, but yeah, so that was kind of the pivot. I was like, After the producer's programs didn't work out, do the MBA thing, after I really thought about the MBA thing, it wasn't true to what I wanted to do, that's when I pivoted back to the program that I ended up doing. 

Camille: Yeah, that's great. And you actually reminded me of something when you said it was foolish to apply. (Yeah)

Because in the process of preparing for this podcast, I've been trying to clear more space on my laptop. (Yeah.) And so I was going through a bunch of files from, like, college from undergrad that I had saved, just papers and random things (Yeah) and so I had this informational like notes that I had saved with a TV writer. (Oh cool)

And I was like, I'm so cute. Like I know nothing. (Yeah) And um one of the things that stood out to me was, like, I think I had maybe asked her, what's next for you? Or like, what do you want to do in the future? Like, what would be a, a like, bump up in your career? And she said being, um, a showrunner.

(Mmm!) But I couldn't remember what the term was cause I was writing these notes after the interview and so I was like “the TV head, can't remember what term she used” which is so wild now to like not have known even what that word was (Yeah) So I was just thinking about that and like part of the point of this podcast is to help people (For sure) who, like, can't access those things (Yeah) be like, oh.

Lhani: Oh, absolutely, and that's the thing, like, I say foolish, and I mean, we're hard on ourselves, right, like, but I was green, you were green. You don't know what you don't know, and honestly, it's a really fun thing to be able to look back at that and see the growth, because what was that? In 2016, because I graduated, we graduated in 2017, so that was like, 8 years ago, like, we were babies, so it's just funny.

Camille: Yeah. And we've learned so much. 

Lhani: We've learned so much. We've come a long way. We're still here.

[00:14:24] Camille: We're still here. Um, okay, so because you always knew grad school was going to happen for you, how did you know that was a good time to do it? Well, actually, I guess let's kind of contextualize where you were because it was, I mean, I feel like people use post pandemic in a certain way, but we weren't in deep lockdown anymore.

Right. Um, we were like, most people were back at the office pretty much doing. normal things, um, like not masked. Yeah. And then, you were still working full time in the industry, so what about that moment were you like, “now's a good time, I'm gonna do it?”

[00:15:10] Lhani: Yes, I remember, I feel like it's kind of a two pronged thing, but the first light bulb for me, um, because I was applying in kind of the late summer/fall of 2020.

And so at that time-

Camille: Okay, that's like A little bit deep pandemic.

Lhani: Yeah, that was deep and we were fully working at home. But no, I went to school in 2021. That's what you're thinking of probably. (Okay.) Um, which does matter because I was going abroad, right? (Right) So all these COVID things that I had to figure out and kind of limited (Your visa, yeah) some of the stuff I could do. (Oh, yeah) Exactly.

But, um, that summer, when I was working at Warner Bros, I was on the Equity and Inclusion team, and it was interesting because our Chief Diversity Officer that our, you know, group kind of fell under, she absorbed the Communications responsibility as well. So she was not only the CDO, but also like basically the CMO, or the Chief Communications Officer.

And I think seeing our departments kind of combine, I was like, wow, this makes so much sense. And the only kind of glimpse into that, um, dual role between, or the intersection between diversity and comms, that I had was during the Page Program when I was working for Dupe. Shout out to Dupe. Um, on the NBC Comms team, but we were supporting the TIPS team, so the talent infusion programs team.

And that was cool because I was seeing, you know, what comms can do in conjunction with DEI and how important it is to amplify not only your shows, but also the programs that you're doing. To make your shows better and more diverse and more inclusive. And so I think when I realized what Christy Haubegger's role was becoming as an intersection of DEI and comms, I was like, Oh yeah, this makes sense. I should probably try to pivot more into, like, multicultural marketing.

And so that's why I found my program so attractive because it was a global media and communication program. So it was putting media and communication in this global context. And it was also just amazing timing because our DEI team based in, um, Burbank was actually starting a team in London.

So I was like, oh my gosh, if I can do this program and get a job working, like, part time because on a student visa in London, um, you can work up to 20 hours, then I feel like I'll definitely be where I'm supposed to be. So that's what I was able to make happen and was working 20 hours on the new equity and inclusion team. I was like one of the first hires while I was in school. So that was cool. 

Camille: Yeah. So pretty much that whole situation was made for you. (Yeah.) That timing was perfect.

Lhani: Timing was perfect. And I

Camille: You had the right connections.

Lhani: Exactly. And I really, I like have to shout out Karen Horne, who was always so supportive of me, but I really pushed that myself.

I was, like, leaving, you know, supporting her as an EA and, you know, doing the programming kind of work and reached out to Asif Sadiq, who was heading up the team in London, was just like, I'm going to be there for school. I'm coming from this team. I can help, you know, kind of, uh, be a contact as I was just on the U.S. team. So it just worked out really, really nicely. 

Camille: Yeah. But I'm glad you added that actually, because just because all the pieces are there doesn't mean anyone's going to put it together for you. (Yes.) And you do have to kind of make it happen.

Lhani: A hundred percent. And I was like pressed a little bit. Because I was just like, I don't know.

I feel like when you see the stars aligning like that, it is your responsibility to like put in the work as well. So like, “faith without works is dead” is truly something I resonate with in a lot of areas of my life. 

[00:18:47] Camille: Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about your actual program. So, Technically USC is over the whole thing or no?

Lhani: So, no, really, really no, because it is like, it feels that way, honestly, and I was thinking about it because even on my, on my Instagram post, I just posted about, like, from my USC graduation, which I'm like, that's misleading, but like, if you know, you know, you know? But it really is a dual degree program between the London School of Economics and Political Science and USC Annenberg, which is a really long name, but

Camille: Yeah. Okay, so really it's like joint. A hundred percent. And then you get, you do your first year in London, get a full degree. Yes. Second year in LA at USC, get another full degree. 

Lhani: Yes. But unless you specify that you're, you basically have to complete both years to say that you graduated from the dual degree program.

Okay. So. There is an opportunity when you're at LSC to say, you know what, I've kind of learned what I want to learn. I want to stay here. Some people opt to do that and they end up, like, working in journalism in London or just abroad. But yes, that is the scenario. 

[00:19:55] Camille: Nice. Okay. So. Did grad school feel right the whole time, or ever? 

Lhani: Mmm, I think it was one of those really good but really hard decisions. I felt like every day I was questioning if it was going to pay off, because it was one of those things where like, it's not.

you know, law school. It's not med school. So the ROI is what you make it. Again, so it's one of those things where it's like, faith without works is dead. Like, I had to hustle to make sure I got a job after school and stuff like that. Kind of, I feel like. Um, but yeah, it's just not a clear path even after you do the program in some ways.

So I was questioning, you know, if it was going to be worth it, or if I was where I was supposed to be, but I think I definitely got like God winks throughout it that I was doing the right thing, like the job lining up and even being able to really craft my dissertation and my thesis around what I wanted to study. Um, I think, and even just sharpening my writing skills has really helped me in my current role.

But I definitely did question it. And I think too, like, I self funded my full first year and I'm like now, (oh) yeah. (that’s a lot) Girl, I'm like the shoes I would have, the car I would have, you know what I mean? (Yeah) Like to this day, I'm like, Ooh, I'm waiting on it. You know what I mean? (Yes)

But like, I don't know. I think. I think it was like, and I have to give credit to my family and my dad, especially who I would talk to all the time, would just be like “a hundred percent you're doing the right thing.”

And I think too, when I talk about it being a life decision as opposed to a career decision, like my paternal grandmother and grandfather were educators in the DC public school system. They were principals and administrators and like born in the thirties and both of them had master's degrees. So I was like, if they can do it, I have to do it.

And like, continue that legacy of like, education, um, for my family that's gone before me and hopefully will come after me and just set that example, because if you say something is a value of yours, you have to like, prove it. Um, and so that is what I wanted to do for my life, I think. 

[00:22:17] Camille: Yeah. Did you feel like, did they add any of that pressure or you just, It was kind of understood like “this is a family thing that's that's what we do”?

Lhani: I think the family thing that was understood is that you have to do your best and education is something. So I think like the expectation is you definitely go to undergrad, excel, do your best. But I think grad school and being successful in whatever you do is up to you. Um, but yeah, I, I didn't feel pressure from them to go to school specifically.

But encouragement to excel always, for sure. And it was one of those things, like my parents never in school at any point were like, “What grade did you get on that test? Or were you doing this?” It was never that. But they really, I think, showed through sacrifice, like, “This is what we're doing, so you do your part too.”

And I really, really grew through that kind of approach. 

Camille: That's, I think that's a parent's dream. (Yeah.) Because so many people are making sacrifices and the kids are like, okay, yeah, you made that decision.

Lhani: That's true. I mean, you'd probably relate to this too, but I think also having my older sister who I was in high school with at the same time, like she played lacrosse at Amherst and like did really well at NCS, so I felt like the expectation was not to, you know, just keep that ball rolling.

And I think my brother probably felt the same way. Um, so yeah, you set a high tone for your siblings as well. And probably, did you feel pressure or?

Camille: I felt a lot of pressure, but not from my parents. I don't know where it came from, to be honest. And, um, I guess that is a little bit of like, firstborn characteristics, but I was like, “I will achieve no matter what.”

And, uh, Not always giving myself grace. (Yeah) And I think, um, I'm just thinking of some of the things I told myself in high school. Like, learning to drive was, like, a little bit challenging for me. (Me too!) It was so hard to stay in the lanes. I don't know why, what was ha like, I feel like I'm coordinated, I'm athletic. I don't know why I couldn't do this right away. (Yeah.)

And I remembered thinking like, “Everyone can do this!” (Yeah) Like, so many people on the road, (yeah, yeah) like, it has nothing to do with, like, it was so frustrating (Interesting) and I was thinking the same thing about graduating high school when it was getting hard at the end, even though the connection wasn't the same.

Like, a ton of people graduate high school, but I'm like, I'm trying to do with all these APs and get straight A's. (Yeah.) So I'm like, not everyone does that. (Right.) But in my head, I was like, (yeah) you cannot fail this because it is, and my parents were like, “great job.” Like they were so supportive (That’s good)  and nice. 

Nice is weird. I don't know if I've ever called them nice. It's such a neutral term.

Lhani: Parents of color. Not your little friend.

Camille: But, um, always super supportive and, like, proud of me, but never, like, “this isn't good enough or you better do this again.” (Yeah.) So I don't know where that pressure came from, but I made sure it was there.

Lhani: Yeah. I mean it makes sense though. If your parents, like, I know your parents. I feel like they're both really high achievers in their own rights, so it's like when you love your parents and you're grateful for all they've done for you, it almost feels, like, natural to want to make them proud. So that might be a part of it. I don't know. (Yeah) It's interesting to think about though. 

Camille: Yeah, definitely wanted the pride. I don't know that I consciously was thinking about any sacrifices though.

Lhani: Really?

Camille: Yeah.

Lhani: Interesting.

Camille: Yeah. Even now at this age, I think I'm only just becoming really aware of what it must have been like for them. (Yeah.) I don't think I had any, I, I wasn't even, it didn't cross my mind.

Yeah. When I was in high school. Um, Or college, really, probably. 

Lhani: It's so interesting. I think for me, I was very conscious of it, but I think just a concrete one, like we lived in PG County and always went to school in DC, and like, my mom worked in Maryland closer to where, you know, we lived, and then my dad, um, having his own practice as a lawyer, kind of had a flexible schedule, but our parents would drive us to school every morning, we never took the bus. 

And doing like a 45 minute to and from school commute, I was just like, I work fully remote now and it's hard to get out of bed. (That’s real) I can't imagine having to wake up before my three kids (Get these kids to, yeah) that have an attitude all the time. I'm just like, I don't know.

So I think I was just very mindful of that, but yeah, you don't get it until you're older for sure. Like fully. And then we still don't get it because we're not parents, (True) but, um, it's interesting. 

[00:27:15] Camille: Yeah. Running it back to money. (Yeah) I do want to talk about money. (Yeah) Not numbers, but how big of a factor was that in you deciding to go to grad school and like how much planning, how much aftermath?

I know you said you're still thinking about it a little bit now, but, what was that process like? Because I think any time grad school comes up in any scenario, somebody always says something about debt. (Yes.) So yeah, how was that for you? 

Lhani: Yeah, I think it was a really big part of it. Um, and I think that's one of the things that interested me in the MBA programs because I do think that there is kind of more of an infrastructure for students of color to apply for Forté and consortium where you have an opportunity to get a full ride or partial scholarship at top schools.

Um, but for my program, I actually did a couple of inner informationals with current students and I made sure to reach out to students of color and they were very kind of clear off jump that, like, there was not a lot of money available.

And so, especially knowing that my first year would be in London, I was just like, okay. I kind of had to run the pros and cons of it, but I think it was one of those things, again, where it was just like an intangible opportunity to kind of go away and grow, um, on my own personally and get that personal development experience, so that was kind of priceless to me.

And I do think that, luckily, I had roommates, like, for the first four years of living in L.A., so I was able to save, um, and had some help from family and then living at home for a bit, um, before going to school, like, four months, pretty much a summer, extended spring, summer, um, I was able to save up some. So, I felt comfortable with it and I did have to take on debt, which, like, now, um, you know, I'll deal with.

Um, what do people say? Like, they're cancelling their loans on their own? Like, I'm of that ministry, honestly. But yeah, that's across that bridge when we get to it, to be honest.

I'm trying to just remain hopeful that that will work itself out and money always comes, you know what I mean?

Camille: Yeah, that's true.

Lhani: I've had that experience, so.

Camille: Well, I don’t know if I can say that, but I think it's a nice thought (Yeah) to work with.

Lhani: And not in a financially irresponsible way, but in like, uh, you're investing in education, right? I'm not like blowing it off. (Right) So, um, and yeah, if you think about it, it's like, I'm not a homeowner, right? So it's like, that's kind of been my biggest investment thus far. Um, and that's an appreciating kind of thing

Camille: It is an investment.

Lhani: Yeah, it's an investment. I just try to think of it that way. 

[00:30:00] Camille: Yeah. That's a good way to think of it. Yeah. And then you said that, You were able to kind of bring your identity in and write about what you wanted in your thesis, so What was it about? 

[00:30:16] Lhani: Yes, so I chose, at LSC, to focus on HBO's Insecure, which was super cool. Since I was working at Warner Bros. at the time I felt, you know, kind of closer to the show and so that just information access was there. Um, and so I wrote about Molly's character and specifically her love life. So it kind of relates to the part of my logline where I'm like living in LA, the city I've yet to find love in because in my dissertation about Molly at LSC, I really focus on the plight of single, educated Black women who are desiring partnership with equally as educated, eligible bachelors who happen to be Black men and just kind of some of the challenges or experiences they face in that journey.

Um, so what I did was I used thematic analysis to really look at what research shows Black women who are successful and educated as one of the most educated demographics, um, in the U.S. really face doing that. Um, and so that was really eye opening and just affirming, I think, of my experience, the experience of a lot of my friends.

Um, so, yeah, it was about an 80 page study where I looked at that at LSC. And then when I got back to USC, I focused on Molly's work life, which I also really, really enjoyed as a Black attorney, um, living and working in L.A. And I think that was cool because if you've seen Insecure, you know, Molly starts out at this big, white, primarily white, corporate law firm, and then she transitions to a Black owned and operated law firm. But she experiences, kind of-

Camille: And meets the love of her life.

Lhani: And she finds the love of her life! I know. I always think about that. I'm like, I identify with Issa so much, but I'm very Molly. Like, I am very Molly. So I'm like, she gives me hope.

But I thought what was really interesting in analyzing it at USC is some of the kind of experiences that she has spill over from the Black firm and the white firm. And so things like culture fit and culture add that Ruchika Tulsian's book, in Inclusion on Purpose, talks about she experiences at both firms. So even if it's just like not being invited to, you know, the partner's house, like some of the white associates at the big law firm, but at the black firm, you know, kind of mentioning her old firm a lot or talking out of turn at meetings.

She was experiencing the same things in different ways. So it was really interesting doing that. And one of my line sisters here in LA, she's a Black attorney working at a corporate law firm. So for the study, I was also able to interview her, (Nice) which is really interesting. (That's cool.) And then just hear about how represented she felt or did not feel in Insecure, um, as my real life, Molly 2.0. So that was a really good experience. 

Camille: And for the listener, Molly is played by Yvonne Orji. Yes. She's the best friend of Issa Rae's character in Insecure. But she really fully has her own arc throughout like the whole, every season and the whole show. (Yes.) And then, um, culture fit and culture add.

So culture, I guess you can define how you want to since it was in your thesis. 

[00:33:31] Lhani: Yeah, culture fit is like how easily do you align with the natural culture of the workplace that you work at. I think even like I, where I work, we're fully remote, right?

But for some people, it's really important to be able to go into offices and like, that's their thing. And so I think being-

Camille: Be social, (Exactly) fit in, have the same conversations.

Lhani: Exactly. So that could be more of an adjustment culture fit wise if you're someone who's always worked in the office and thrives in the office, how do you, you know, I think that's potentially culture add by saying maybe we can co-work together if we both are remote working from the same place, which I do sometimes. Um, that type of thing.

And then culture add is, are you valued for what you bring to a culture, or are you facing resistance? Are you facing pushback?

Camille: Because it's different than what's already there.

Lhani: Exactly. Um, how well is it embraced, pretty much?

[00:34:37] Camille: Thank you. I'm, I don't know if people know those things, but just in case. (Yes.) And then for your, I know we talked briefly about your thesis advisor. So. If you can say a little bit just to describe her, but then also the process of how you get an advisor, like, is it up to you at all? 

Lhani: No, it's not. Not at, um, well, in a sense, it is because you get to decide what you're studying and you're kind of assigned advisors based upon their, you know, area of expertise.

Um, and so both at LSE and USC, you're assigned based upon, you know, your advisor's area of expertise. And so, at, um, LSC, I had an advisor who did a lot of thematic analysis, uh, you know, TV show analysis.

And so it was interesting, though, because there are cultural nuances when you're talking about intersectionality and representation to somebody who's not American, right? And so as a Black American woman, we had a really dynamic conversation, I would say, about my use of, um, the word “mirror” or “reflects” in the study that I was doing because that kind of brushed up against her in a negative way because she was like, “Well, you know, Insecure isn't a documentary. It's not a news program. So you can't say that it's reflecting. Or, um, mirroring the experience of Black women.”

And for me, I took issue with that because I'm a Black woman. How can you tell me that it's not mirroring or reflecting it when it's mirroring and reflecting my experience (Right.) and those of a lot of my friends?

And so I think it was really validating. Then coming to USC and having, um, a different advisor who, you know, I wasn't talking about the love life anymore, but I was talking about the work life in a same kind of tone with the same lenses of intersectionality and representation. And he was like, “put it in there.” He was like, “of course, it's mirroring it or reflecting it. As long as you can kind of explain why through your research, that's a fair argument.”

And I was able to defend my thesis and go on and graduate, obviously, but, um, that's not an unusual experience. I think I've always brushed up, um, against that since high school with just expressing myself to professors or teachers who have different identities when it comes to things about, you know, Blackness, womanhood, um, and self expression.

[00:37:06] Camille: Do you feel like, I know we talked about kind of being fresh and green when you first applied, so obviously you had more context and understanding after having worked a little bit and then going to school.

But do you feel like your work experience helped you in school, or it was just like, oh, I still could have done this? 

Lhani: No, 100%. I think my work experience definitely helped me because I think it contextualized a lot of what I was learning at both LSE and the global context because we're learning about, you know, the world economics at play impacting the entertainment industry or the media industry or the news industry kind of writ large.

And then at USC One of my favorite classes was a luxury fashion industry course. And so we had speakers from different, you know, um, sectors of entertainment media and fashion come and speak to us and I think even just having had the experience of like being on the comms team at, um, NBCU supporting TIPS and seeing like Essence come in and like the different stars that you want to get on the cover of a luxury, you know, fashion magazine, that intersection and why that's so important. I don't think I would have fully appreciated that without having worked and had those prior experiences. 

[00:38:19] Camille: Yeah, that makes sense for sure. And you kind of worked throughout the program, or you did work throughout the whole time in school. (Yeah.) Um, but how was your time coming back into full time work? Like, how was that process?

Was it pretty smooth, or were you like, Ugh, I just did all this, like, you should be banging down my door trying to hire me. 

[00:38:52] Lhani: Yeah, you know, I think, honestly, I'm really grateful just for the way that it kind of worked for me because during the fall semester at USC, so pretty much when I had just gotten onto campus, I went to an event. And I'll never forget, because it was one of those days I was so tired, I didn't feel like going, but I was like, I should go. And I went, and the company that I work for currently, they were represented on like a panel, and so I was like, oh, wow, this is really cool, I should just like, send them my resume. So I did it kind of like, thinking I would never hear back, but it really turned into, like, a full blown, you know, interview process.

And so I was really only sending my resume because I was interested in finding, um, a semester, like a spring semester job that would be part time. But they offered me the job to be part time on, um, the condition that I would work full time. So it was perfect. (Yeah)

So, I was also working fully remote while I was in school for the company. And so then upon graduating, I, like, took a vacation and then started full time. So it was a really seamless kind of intro. (Yeah, that's the dream.) It was, yeah, it worked perfectly, honestly, and especially because I hadn't done crisis management or creative strategy. So I think starting part-time while I was still in school and then being able to put all my attention into it, worked really, really well for me.

[00:40:12] Camille: Nice. Lovely. (Yes.) Um, obviously all experience is valuable and got you to where you are now. Um, but knowing what you do know now, having been through the whole process, is there anything you would've done differently if you had a second chance?

[00:40:31] Lhani: You know, I don't think so. I think sometimes I mentioned like the shoes and the car and stuff earlier, like I do wonder if maybe I should have taken on higher debt load just so I could be a little bit more like cash liquid now, but I have spoken to financial planners and they're like, no, if you have it, try to limit how much debt you take on always and money will come back.

So that's really the only thing I think I think twice about. But overall, I think I went at the perfect time in my life, um, and tried to just make the best of it. Um, and that's what I'm trying to do now, just like grow where I've been planted, um, and trust that maybe later I'll see the full return of grad school, but I don't think I'd have my current job without going to school even, so that's a really huge tangible return right there that I try to focus on too.

Camille: Yeah. And so nice to have that validation immediately.

Lhani: Yes. Yes. And there are a lot of SC people at my current company, which is a really good feeling too. (Yeah.) SC Annenberg specifically. (Nice.) Fight on. 

Camille: Um, go Bruins, but yeah.

Lhani: I forgot that! Get outta here.

Camille: I've been trying not to say it this whole interview, but I had to. I had to right at the end. 

[00:41:41] Camille: Um, okay. And then, do you have, like, one to two pro tips for anyone who might be considering going to grad school?

Lhani: Mm. Yeah. I think my biggest tip in general is just be yourself and like do the work on yourself to know what that even means, right? Because I think the realer you are and more authentic you are in your essays and in your interviews, the farther along you'll get. Um, and so I think that's one thing I really try to do.

And then also just like lean into fear. Right? Like, I had never been to London before moving there. That was my first time, and like, coming from L.A., I was so worried about the weather. Oh my gosh, I was so worried about the weather. And I moved two days before my 26th birthday. (Oh yeah.) As you know. (Yes, yes.)

And so, shout out to Shei (Yeah) and shout out to you for connecting me with Shei because she helped me celebrate. I didn't know anybody there except for the people at Warner that I was going to be working with.

And so I think just leaning into how fearful I was of like, not being far away from home so much, but just being a fish out of water was good for me. I was, like, really anonymous in a city. I could just walk around and look crazy and just like, you know, in LA I feel like you always gotta be okay. You know what I mean? 

[00:43:01] Camille: Yeah. Or a little bit embarrassed sometimes. (Exactly.) Which is where I live.

Lhani: Do you feel that way?

Camille: A lot of times. Because I think my like grungy… Grungy is not even the right word. (Yeah.) But me like rolling outta bed, not being put together, walking to the store is like a lot of levels below everybody else’s rolling out of bed, walking to the store.

Lhani: Yeah, that's fair. Mine too.

Camille: So I’m like.

Lhani: Yeah. I feel that. LA is crazy. Cause yeah, people's casual look is like Met attire.

Camille: Yeah, it's so nice. (Yeah.) And I'm like, ugh (Yeah, it’s not) can we relax (It’s exhausting) a little please? But I love LA, I really do.

Lhani: Me too.

Camille: I didn't mean to hate on it just now.

Lhani: LA is where it's at.

Camille: But no, those are, those are great pieces of advice. And I think, especially that like, really leaning into who you are and being in touch with yourself will help you figure out why you're even doing this (Yes.) and help you make those big decisions. (Yes.) Um, so yeah, never a bad, never a bad move to know yourself.

Lhani: Exactly. Know yourself. (Yeah.) Word to Drake, (Do that work) not Kendrick. Period. I take that back. We’re in LA. I take that back. Yeah.

[00:44:15] Camille: Um, okay. So this question I'm asking everyone at the end of their interview, just to wrap it up. 

Lhani: Okay, (So) Let me sit up straight.

Camille: What is keeping you up at night, industry or otherwise?

Lhani: What is keeping me up at night?

Camille: Yeah, or in other words if you're getting good sleep, which great job, um, what-

Lhani: Magnesium powder sleepy girl mocktail. Guys, no, seriously, I, I put tart cherry juice with magnesium powder in a lime LaCroix every night, I'm out like a light. Okay.

Camille: Through the night. Wake up, wake up rested.

Lhani: Sometimes, not all the time. No, but I get deep sleep, (Okay) right? But no, I think I think I think when I think of what keeps me at night, it’s actu-

Camille: Which yes. And I meant (Oh yeah) what's taking up a lot of space in your brain if you're getting good sleep and that doesn't resonate.

Lhani: No, it does resonate. It does resonate. Um, I think I always think about this Maya Angelou quote and she says it's from, um, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, and she says, “there's no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside of you.”

And I think about that all the time because that's how it feels. I feel like my mission and my purpose is to tell my story, as, like, a Black woman and my experiences that aren't just unique to me as a Black woman, but just my human experiences and to help others who are underrepresented and underestimated tell their stories as well.

So I don't want to miss my mark. And I think I want to try to do that urgently, you know? And just have a sense of urgency with my purpose. And so that keeps me up at night. Um, and I think poetry, speaking of Maya, has just become a really good outlet for that, so I'm trying to just put that into motion.

Camille: Yes. I was going to ask what telling your story means to you because I think when people hear that sometimes they're like, uh, I don't want to write a book. And it's not necessarily literally that. (Yeah.) But yeah, you did kind of answer that already with the poetry. 

Lhani: Yeah, and I think I, you know, mentioned in the log line, but I think like in entertainment, we always hear like writers write, right? Like, if you're a writer, you have to write.

And so I came into entertainment wanting to be a showrunner. But in the Page Program and just like working at the various studios, I didn't have the urge to, like, write a screenplay. I didn't need to write. But I think now where I am in my life, I do feel like I'm excavating a lot of experiences and a lot of trauma, even through poetry, and that feels right to me. (Yeah.) Yeah, so that's, that's where I'm at. That’s where I’m at.

Camille: Great place to be. 

Lhani: Yes, we're here. Thank you. 

Camille: Thank you! Thank you for coming and for sharing your story with us. (Thank you.) It's a pleasure and um, I don't know, I felt really proud reading your bio. (Oh, thank you!) Like, just knowing you day to day, you don't really think about people's accolades.

And I'm like, this bio is stacked!

Lhani: Thank you! That's so kind.

Camille: So, yeah, it's, it's been fun. It's an honor to know you. I appreciate you.

Lhani: Honor to know you too, friend. I appreciate you. Thank you for holding the door open for me (Oh) to even be here. 

Camille: Yeah, any time.

Lhani: Yes, yes, yes, y'all, and it don't stop. 

Camille: Um, and if we have any dating inquiries, we should send those…

Lhani: To hell. No, just kidding. No, I’m just kidding.

Camille: And great place to end.

Lhani: There we go.

Camille: Yay, thank you.

Lhani: You're welcome. That was fun!

Camille: Thanks for listening to my conversation with Lhani. If you want to stay up to date with her, you can find her social media accounts in the show notes.

Please follow the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or both, as well as on Instagram @HoldTheDoorPod.

I'll be back next week with an episode on becoming a people manager. See you then.